EMGs - Who sells them?

[Steve]

Isn't "the ring" in any hobby simply a small group of people who;
- spend a lot of time with the hobby
- therefore among the most knowledgeable
- have the valuable stuff and/or
- know what it's worth
- have the money and are the most willing and able to spend it
- and, for the above reasons, tend to trade mostly amongst themselves?

That may be a "ring" in your kind and friendly world, Bruce, but that's not what those collectors from the UK are referring to when they talk about the "UK gramophone ring". No, sadly it isn't; what the latter refers to is a small group (usually no more than 6 persons) of dealers who are in it solely for the money and profit making. They work together to ensure that they buy all the best machines that rarely turn up in the large antique fairs / auctions and specialist sales. They do this by pre-arranging to not bid against each other at an auction and nominate whoever is nearest to it to go and 'secure it'. They then PRIVATELY re-auction the item amongst themselves to find out who the real winner would have been had they not agreed to stay away from the REAL auction. That person wins it and splits the difference of the two realised prices between the others. Therefore the winner gets the machine cheaper and the others get a slice of the 'profit' that should have rightfully and legally gone to the poor vendor of the item. Consider this, if they DIDN'T operate an illegal ring then the dealers who didn't win the item would get NOTHING and would be forced to walk away empty handed. It's simply a way to ensure that their precious time is taken care of by financial compensation. If you were a collector you'd expect to either win the machine or walk away with nothing? Auction rings are illegal although not uncommon in the dirty antiques business. This all assumes that the 'ring' do secure the item far more cheaply at the genuine auction than they might have done had the dealers been bidding against each other in the normal way. You might wonder why no one else dares to bid against them if the item is that good? Well, it is not unknown for one or two nasty people to physically threaten anyone who was intending to bid against them or to use other forms of intimidation or 'negotiation'.

Another thing they do is put up a front that each of them solely owns a machine with a view to seeing who amongst them can get the most for it from a gullible collector and then they split the profits again. The main point to remember is that MOST of the people involved in the UK have access to some money. They aren't poor and can well afford to play games if it is deemed worthwhile in the long run. That is to say that if you, Bruce, went to an auction to buy something that you wanted for your collection they would have great fun running you up seeing as though the risk to them is less than it is for you (if you grossly over-pay for something) given that they have their risk shared with others and when they jointly own stock the risk gets dissipated amongst the other items. It's a dishonest practice and as I said previously, totally unfair and illegal. The biggest loser is the vendor though.

[Marco Gilardetti]

Although I do not know personally mr. GMEMG nor the hollandish fellow, nor the poster of the above message, I must say that I second their sentiments.

I have to admit that I'm not an expert of the UK situation, even though I've always been impressed by the huge amount of spare parts that many shops have for sale - and now perhaps I got an idea of how this happens.

However, there are notorious cases of italian radio sets that have been massively bought on the wild or on the-well-known-auction-sites by members of some radio collectors' club, which later published (more or less directly) monographic books about these specific models explaining to us ingorant people how incredibly rare and shockingly valuable they were, and later began reselling drop by drop their units at ten times the free-market value. When occasionally a unit pops out in the wild, they immediately rush to write everywhere on the internet that it's a fake or stolen or a reproduction.

But something similar happens with other type of collections: the well-known Gronchi Rosa letter stamp is always proposed as an incredibly rare and valuable specimen by those who own one or many; but at regular auction sales it sells always waaay lower than the "official" value proposed by "experienced collectors" on "official" books.

I could go on with other examples for the rest of the afternoon. Nothing too weird though: when there is money £££ $$$ €€€ involved many people behave like @$$holes.

[GMEMG]

I have to say that Steve makes some excellent and totally truthful points but it's wider than he suggests - the "Ring" have infiltrated a "Learned Gramophone Society" over the last 30 years and used it to line their pockets.

And it's not just dealers - the motives of Auctioneers who take no strong action against Rings they are fully aware of must see that it looks very bad for them .

One in particular admitted in a phone call witnessed by the staff at his end an recorded by accident at mine that :

"Dealers rings exist in all auctions"

an astonishing admission - however true collectors may know it to be !

But then in the UK it's not just eh Dealers and the Auctioneers but "Gentlemen" dealers operating from home who benefit from as one put it:

"The Auctioneer took the bidding faster than the 'phones could keep up and brought the hammer down quick and moved on before anyone could object"

That "Gentleman" was most indignant that i had mentioned the Ring to him - :

"what business is it of ours ? " He asked !

I forget who said it but :

"It is only possible for Evil to prevail if good men stand by and do nothing"

My Elderly parents Have been hassled (My father was suffering from Cancer - only last week given the all - clear) I have been threatened, my friends have been threatened

quite apart from the "Learned Society" which has used it's members funds to shut down 3 UK Forums - in the lastast attempt this weekend they actually offered the Hosts "£35 Admin fee " to shut us down - they didn't and WON'T and i shall begin the fight back now !

The Directors of that "Charity" will have to justify the supression of FREE SPEECH,use of their member's funds and Links to an Illegal "Ring" or RESIGN IMMEDIATELY !

I notice no comment from Epigramophone ?

Come on Roger afraid you won't get on the Board !

[Steve]

Come on Roger afraid you won't get on the Board !

Board of what exactly? Losers?

[GMEMG]

Well, YES - the "Ship of Fools" known as the Board of the CLPGS NOW proven to have conspired to surpress FREE SPEECH and closed 3 UK Gramophone Forums. The Directors Have exceeded their legal and Moral Authority and wrecked the hard work of UK Collectors

The Directors & Patrons of the CLPGS are just a Front for an illegal Ring and they should be FORCED to Resign

I understand that several people plan "Direct Action" by putting the whole membership list on the Internet so the members will be at the receiving end of "Direct Action"

I want to point out i strongly disagree with that and won't be associated with it - I just want these Directors REMOVED as they have acted without the authority of their members and so i prefer to refer the CLPGS to the Charity Commisioners to see if they think the money spent in these actions was LEGAL

[John Svensson]

For those of us not familiar with the hobby in the U.K, what is the "CLPGS"? "x x x x Society" I take it. "Direct Action" sounds ominous ....... kind of a pre-WW2 phrase? John

[syncopeter]

In Holland there also is a small 'ring' unfortunately, where dealers of reputation tend to snap up bragains, strip them of the most valuable part replace those with half broken ones and then sell a machine on as 'totally untouched and original' to the innocent public. Just read the thread about restoring an HMV model 102 where my original model 130 was converted into a near wreck. It was in great working condition hen it had to be sold. The dealer picked it up for less than 1/5th of the price and sold it on at full price. Creating a Frankenphone from a misnmash of parts is a relatively current practice, They sell them as 'with period modifications'!I only trust one or two people nowadays, the rest are, quite frankly, snake oil sellers. All the good stuff still goes to the far east, where the profit margins are huge. There hardly are any good HMV cabinet models left. Anything above average quality has gone east.
So yes, I fully support GMEMG and Steve. I've never met them, but they are fair, honest and really know what they are talking about. Sorry, but that's reality folks.

[syncopeter]

In Holland there also is a small 'ring' unfortunately, where dealers of reputation tend to snap up bragains, strip them of the most valuable part replace those with half broken ones and then sell a machine on as 'totally untouched and original' to the innocent public. Just read the thread about restoring an HMV model 102 where my original model 130 was converted into a near wreck. It was in great working condition hen it had to be sold. The dealer picked it up for less than 1/5th of the price and sold it on at full price. Creating a Frankenphone from a misnmash of parts is a relatively current practice, They sell them as 'with period modifications'!I only trust one or two people nowadays, the rest are, quite frankly, snake oil sellers. All the good stuff still goes to the far east, where the profit margins are huge. There hardly are any good HMV cabinet models left. Anything above average quality has gone east.
So yes, I fully support GMEMG and Steve. I've never met them, but they are fair, honest and really know what they are talking about. Sorry, but that's reality folks.

[OrthoSean]

It happens very often in the US as well where parts are "switched" and a machine is flogged off with "period modifications" as well. I'm surprised nobody here has really alluded to it, but I know of dealers here that do this more often than not.

Sean

[brianu]

It happens very often in the US as well where parts are "switched" and a machine is flogged off with "period modifications" as well. I'm surprised nobody here has really alluded to it, but I know of dealers here that do this more often than not.

Sean

... it's probably just not as obvious or as big of a deal here in the US given its relatively smaller impact - there seem to be far more machines available for more reasonable prices here than abroad.

still, though, I have to stand by my earlier post - I mean, I can appreciate some annoyance with having to deal with such situations, but to obsess over them so laboriously with extended posts and discussions and youtube videos and rants, while speaking in relatively vague terms, only using specificity here and there as some sort of inside reference directed toward a few people or targets in the know, and casting those targets in this weirdly menacing, all-powerful light... over antique record players. the situation itself, the dishonesty of the less than scrupulous, is obviously unfortunate. but the rest just seems paranoid, if not just silly.