The holy grail of HMV Machines turned up on eBay

[Valecnik]

I would guess that 'a more sensible price' in todays market would be £2,500-3,000.

Imagine this price for the "holy grail" of Victor, Columbia or Edison machines.

That's a very good point. There are several models, especially of Victor and Edison machines that would sell even in today's economy for multiples of this.

[gramophoneshane]

There are HMVs that sell for multiples of this too. I kind of doubt many collectors would agree with the seller & call the Automatic the holy grail of HMVs.
The holy grail of HMV record changers perhaps, but not of HMV/G&T acoustic gramophones.

[Steve]

The holy grail of HMV record changers perhaps, but not of HMV/G&T acoustic gramophones

Agreed. One of the indisputable 'Holy Grail' machines of this period is the 202. And that's because it HAS got the biggest internal horn of any machine: Victor, HMV, Edison, Columbia, Pathé, or EMG (internal models)and it consequently sounds the best.

[lurker]

Wow, what obfuscation and deliberate misinformation.

Anyone who cares to add up numbers in the HMV catalogs would come up with this:

H W D Cubature Price
1a 40 ½ 43 24 ½ 42,666.75 127% 125 150 w options
203 49 ¾ 29 23 ¼ 33,543.94 100% 75
194 44 ¾ 25 22 ½ 25,171.88 75% 52-10-0


This of course includes the feet, since the 1A has stubbly feet, whereas the 203 is jacked up on a trestle, I would not be surprised if the body height of the 1A is higher than the body of the 203.

Also, I may have missed something, but what exactly is the length of a 203/ 194 horn?
Nobody seems to have stated a measurement.

According to the savants idiots of The Gramophone of Dec 1927, the HMV Model 1 has a "straight- equivalent" horn of 9 feet, they said the same about the largest of the re-entrant machines a few months earlier.

Christopher Proudfoot, who owned all of the large HMV machines, says that the 1A horn is basically a 203 horn sideways.

Corrections are always appreciated, and if one of the owners could give us the real length of a 203 horn or a 194 horn or a model 1 horn (it is not that difficult to stick a wire down the tone arm if you really care to know) then we would not need to guesstimate and infer. (though be warned you will come up shorter than you like)

[gramophoneshane]

I measured my 202 horn a few years back, and it came out at 9'1" long (including tonearm). I've never owned a 193/194, but they are apparently 7' long.
The horn of the Automatic 1 is the same size at the opening (approx) as the 193/194 horn. I've only ever seen one A1 in person & didn't measure the legs, but the legs of the 202 are only 9" high. From memory I'd say the A1 legs are about 6" high.
Apparently the smaller horn was used in the A1 (and turned on it's side) because the cabinet would have been considerably higher to accomedate the large horn along with the changer mechanism & record bin.
That said, it is possible that the horn was redesigned completely for the A1, so it could also be 9' long, but with a smaller opening than that of the 202/203?
All I can say for sure is that the A1 example I heard, didn't sound as good as my 202.

On a side note, when measuring the mouth of these horns, you need to remove the grille, as the horns are not the same size as the grille.

[lurker]

Thanks for providing a hard number, even though 9" seems high given the size of horn opening of a 202. Are you sure you measured the centerline with a taut string, and not the outside curvature?

May I correct you on something else:

I believe the effective horn opening of the 203 is 30 ¾" x 23 ¼" if you ignore the acoustically useless flanges.
This is equivalent to a circle of 30.17095784".
I can assure you that several models by EMG and Expert have horns larger than 30" diameter.

Which leads to the puzzling fact: it is mostly proud owners of the 203/202 who claim their machine has the largest horn. Is there any disinterested person who who has made objective measurement to settle the question of which phonograph has the largest horn (of course we would need to define first what "large" means, that's not quite as simple to define as it seems.)

[AZ*]

(of course we would need to define first what "large" means, that's not quite as simple to define as it seems.)

Interesting points, lurker. In other unrelated fields where "size matters," some people prefer length over width and vice versa - or so I've heard.

[gramophoneshane]

*Are you sure you measured the centerline with a taut string, and not the outside curvature?

As sure as I could be, using a power cord with the end cut off & not being able to see inside the horn, but as I said to Carsten on the OTV when I did it, the only real way to accurately measure the length would be to cut one open & measure dead centre of the sound chamber path, or another way might be to plug the neck of the horn, fill it with water & then measure the total volume the horn holds.

*I can assure you that several models by EMG and Expert have horns larger than 30" diameter.

I dont think anyone has ever said otherwise, but the 202/203 are said to have the biggest "internal" horn that was offered to the public. If I remember correctly the largest "external" horned EMG or Expert had a sound chamber 15 feet long (or it may have been 12') but I'm sure Steve will be able to quote the exact length and model.

*Is there any disinterested person who who has made objective measurement to settle the question of which phonograph has the largest horn

Not that I'm aware of, but then why would a disinterested person bother?

[Ampico66]

I saw a cabinet or secretary desk from the late 1600s on Antiques Roadshow (UK) valued at just £2,000. It's hard to believe that phonograph will sell for that much.

[Lucius1958]

Not that I'm aware of, but then why would a disinterested person bother?

*flashes special 'Grammar Police Junior Deputy' badge*

Well, a disinterested person might, if asked politely: an uninterested person wouldn't.......