EMG archaeology explained in funny video!

[Steve]

The gramophone originally had the Victor 4-spring motor import, the HMV '34'. This was originally an HMV 510 Upright Gtrand featuring the Lumiere diaphragm. That has been removed along with the lid and part of the autobrake, all to facilitate the original conversion to an EMG. The electric motor was a REPLACEMENT by EMG and never intended for this machine originally.

My guess is that they had kept the spring motor as a 'stand-by spare' but when the electric motor eventually gave up the ghost they retro-fitted the original motor back in and stowed the whole machine away somewhere. The owner presumably upgraded to something altogether better by then?

The spring motor has therefore hardly ever been used. It exhibits no signs of wear and runs perfectly silently and plays 6 records through without the need for a clean and re-greasing of the springs!

[Phototone]

So, some of the earliest examples of the EMG concept were machines EMG acquired and retrofitted?

[Steve]

Yes, that's correct. The first 'EMG' machines were really only continuations of the Henry Seymour (anarchist, revolutionary, acoustic designer and record pirate - the first?) principles utilising vulcanite, plywood and other internal horns. Their superiority over their immediate predecessors, Vespar and the like, was marginal despite the ecstatic praise heaped on them by the esteemed writers of The Gramophone magazine.

It wasn't until the advent of Percy Wilson's horn that EMG had the opportunity to develop, or more to the point, market an external horn machine that was slightly better than those offered by HMV in the UK. Contrary to the pseudo technical babble offered by The Gramophone, the Lumiere diaphragm machine sold by HMV was markedly superior to any of its contemporary INTERNAL horn machines. The external horn Morning Glory type was STILL better but let's not forget that it was cruelly passe by this time and consigned to the bin of history due to the lack of favour it courted with the average house-wife. This is what prompted the Lumiere development from 1909 by the Gramophone Company (in consultation with Victor TMC Ltd.) as it was a suitable and better acoustic proposition than the standard cast iron floating internal horns.

However, HMV development of the Lumiere models was so slow and was presumably shelved altogether during the 1912 to 1922 period. By the time it arrived in 1924, electrical recording and louder records were just around the corner. This meant the models 460 (table model) and 510 (cabinet version) were very short-lived. Into this world came Percy Wilson who was a gramophone enthusiast but not a businessman. Ellis Michael Ginn was more of the latter but not much of an acoustic expert or a cabinet maker! Due to Wilson's wonderful naivety, the Panharmonic Horn was offered to EMG without any patents or licence agreements so Wilson earnt nothing from the arrangement.

Ginn & Co. egged on by The Gramophone magazine sold early and very crudely made machines with Wilson's horn fitted. Whilst some owners of the wildly expensive HMV Lumiere models might have been disappointed with their obsolesence and relative fragility, most HMV's remained intact. Those men brave enough gave them to Ginn @ Co. who turned them into Wilson Horn 'EMG' gramophones for less money than a scratch-built gramophone.

Of course, with HMV offering their own conversions of the redundant Lumiere cabinets, especially the brilliant 511 Cabinet Grand and with external horn models like the '32' available with an extended acoustic system achieved with the use of a 'U' tube under the motor board to connect the tone-arm to the horn, EMG's Wilson Horn Model (conversion or original guise) was in itself short-lived. The Mark 8 would follow in 1928 copying the HMV system but something better was required.

The length of the horn prevented straight horns being used anymore so EMG returned to the Edison cygnet pattern to save space and offer something a little more aesthetically pleasing. However it wasn't until 1933 that the Mark 10B would arrive to compete with the better Expert Handmade Gramophones produced by Ginn from 1930 when he effectively lost control of his company and was evicted from it. Wilson was on hand to help the development of the Expert models, presumably again without financial reward.

[JHolmesesq]

I haven't checked the board in a while, and so this is a little late but I have to chip in here. Very interesting video, EMG machines are particularly fascinating ones!

Most UK collectors are Mean spirited, Sactimonious, Greedy, jealous, secretive and rather unpleasant and they've got the UK gramophone trade they deserve

I have to object like Swingbandheaven. I'm a UK record collector and I am in no way greedy, jealous or secretive. I spend my money buying records, then hours restoring them for the benefit of youtube and others with interest in the music, because I believe good music should be shared and not hoarded for the enjoyment of one person. If I can do that for the benefit of others then I'm happy.

I'm sure if I had more gramophones I'd do the same too. There are fewer and fewer gramophone collectors with each passing year and yet you seem intent on bickering with each other rather than: keeping your collections to yourselves, or sharing them on Youtube.

Looking at this from the outside, it seems unfortunate that your dispute is sullying the name of the British gramophone collecting fraternity.

[GMEMG]

Hurray !

- You seem to have joined the ranks of a very small group indeed, I put EVERY record i buy on U -Tube and EVERY machine too but we are indeed in a minority, and an ever decreasing one due to 20 years of the very things i have described - condescention to new people, cliquery, secrecy and an a contempt for those who haven't much to spend ALL of which i suffered over the last 20 years

Luckily you haven't had to put up with what I and many others have had too so I shall continue to speak out and "Sully" the name of UK collecting as you so ill - informedly put it as i DO know aht i'm talking about

I would have done this sooner but couldn't (and perhaps haven't yet ) mastered the technology BUT i believe knowledge should be shared - after all most of my records will not survive me so it's best that they are available on the mass - media rather than sitting in a dusty cupboard and any knwledge i have obtained shared for the benefit of others

I now have 1190 videos available of all types but i'm particularly keen on the Great War - an age rapidly vanishing into History

There are millions of records out there so let's get going !

[gramophoneshane]

I'm guessing you haven't had a lot to do with the CLPGS JH?
How many English discographies have you seen online and how many American discographies?
But how many will CLPGS sell you?
I too know some wonderful generous UK collectors, but for every one you come across, I think you'll find ten who are not.
But dont worry, it's not much better here in Australia.
When I had my Australian forum, I asked one member about something- a record label I think. He told me the information was available in a magazine that was published in the early 90s, and that if the information was to appear on the internet, a lot of people would be very upset because someone did a lot of work to compile it, and the author & publishers need to make money from it.
This is despite the fact the magazine is no longer in print & the author has been dead for years.
He did tell me that could read the magazine article if I drove for 15 hours each way to our national library, & I could read it there.

[GMEMG]

John, as mentioned in my Video, I am (at MY expense) going to hire a public hall (and provide refreshments) and I and a couple of other major collectors and EMG enthusiasts - including the chap who has re - made EMG horns are going to give a demonstration of the technology - there will be several CLPGS members there. this will be recorded and broadcast on U - Tube for the benefit of those who cannot attend - i hope several Continental collectors may be able to come as well

YOU are most welcome to join us - Steve will be there and as i say other "Enthusiasts" who are glad NOT to be "Normal" UK collectors and will be sharing their knowledge for all.

I should add that the CLPGS magazine has DRAMATICALLY improved since the creation of the first UK forum - so they CAN listen when they wish - they've cut out the much repeated Frank Andrew's articles and the numerous photo's of members snoring and have many colour pictures and articles by other members - that was NOT the case in the past, I sent in copies of Dozens of machine catalogues and asked loads of questions - when i was a student as you are now THEN NO - ONE wanted to know and there was NO alternative

Think yourself lucky Fabrizio & Paul have written their books - I cannot believe they made much out of it other than the satisfaction of providing collectors with the best available pictures and research - and in particular thank the American Collectors whoo let their machines be photoed and written about.

I was recently asked when the best time to collect was and i said "NOW" there's more available and at a cheaper price than EVER before - My friend "The Squire" has collectoed for 55 years and has never seen so much


Rejoice that you live in such times

[OrthoFan]

...When I had my Australian forum, I asked one member about something- a record label I think. He told me the information was available in a magazine that was published in the early 90s, and that if the information was to appear on the internet, a lot of people would be very upset because someone did a lot of work to compile it, and the author & publishers need to make money from it.
This is despite the fact the magazine is no longer in print & the author has been dead for years.
He did tell me that could read the magazine article if I drove for 15 hours each way to our national library, & I could read it there.

I vaguely remember that post. If I remember right, the label wasn't listed on the AUSTRALIAN and NEW ZEALAND 78 labels site -- http://www.78rpm.net.nz/78s/oz_dates.htm

I haven't looked at that site in years, but I see it was updated as recently as last November. I noticed it now has, on the main page -- http://www.78rpm.net.nz/ -- a PDF document devoted to "Late-Pressed" (post 1960) 78s .

[syncopeter]

The internet may have done wonders for those of us who are open minded and do like to talk about our hobby and share. Regardless where we live and what we collect in particular. How in the world could I otherwise have been able to get in touch with forums like this, learn so much and contribute my little bit of special knowledge? Let's just ignore all those anal retentive people who don't know a computer from a pile of bricks and keep on doing what we like best: enjoying our machines, playing music and sharing with our - long distance - friends!

Peter (and yes, I'm a real person, not somebody's alter ego as has been suggested elsewhere. If in doubt send me a PM so I can prove my point!)

[JHolmesesq]

It's a shame I'm going to work in the USA this summer, otherwise I'd probably take you up on your offer GMEMG