Auction sale of the Sir Paul Getty gramophone records.

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old country chemist
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Auction sale of the Sir Paul Getty gramophone records.

Post by old country chemist »

I listened in today, on the computer to Christopher Proudfoot, the gramophone auctioneer, selling the Paul Getty collection. I was sent a catalogue a couple of weeks ago, but after looking at the estimated prices, I was shocked. I know that these are extremely rare and fine renderings by famous, and not so famous singers, but who values these discs? The Jean de Rezke Fonotipia record, with him at the piano, was estimated at between £6000 to £9000. It went for a hefty £5800 PLUS 15% AND v.a.t.! I noticed a lot of internet bidding-as I expected, but many of the lots were sold, never reaching their starting estimate, but there must still be a lot of money around, as some of the lots were of single discs, often fetching £200 to £500 or more, each. I have never been an opera buff, as I tend to collect lighter stuff, but I still enjoy certain operatic arias-and particularly I like hearing thse very old discs played on an EMG or Expert, as I think the overall reproduction of these acoustic discs is enhanced by these machines.

epigramophone
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Re: Auction sale of the Sir Paul Getty gramophone records.

Post by epigramophone »

I have just been on the SAS website, copying the sale results onto my catalogue.

Many lots appear to have been unsold, but the De Reszke Lot 289 made £5800 plus buyer's premium, a great deal of money considering that Jean was only the accompanist.

2Bdecided
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Re: Auction sale of the Sir Paul Getty gramophone records.

Post by 2Bdecided »

epigramophone wrote:Many lots appear to have been unsold
From the JPG collection, I think it might be most lots that are unsold...
http://www.specialauctionservices.com/l ... page7.html

Were there no bids, or did they just not reach the reserve?

There are several lots where they've added an announcement that certain records aren't included. Did they lose them? Drop them?


The machine prices seem all over the place. I assume the actual condition would help explain them. Did anyone see if most items were selling in the room or on the internet?


The records and machines I was interested in mostly went very cheaply. Sadly, by the time you add in time off work, petrol, and the cost of staying over, it would make them very expensive, so I didn't go. I bet the one time I do, prices won't be so favourable!

Cheers,
David.

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Steve
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Re: Auction sale of the Sir Paul Getty gramophone records.

Post by Steve »

David, stop worrying. I attended SAS today and it was, bar none, the poorest showing I've ever seen. Things weren't cheap, everything apart from the Gramophone Grand was utter c**p! The buyer of the Grand already had one - it was THAT nice he wanted TWO!

I went with £8000 hoping to buy the Style 14 Deluxe amongst other things. I bought nothing. The Deluxe was anything but. Repro horn, elbow, wrong speed control, winder, back-bracket/tone-arm! And it was in very tired condition with broken / missing governor weights. It sold for almost £1800. I hope the buyer from the internet isn't heart-broken when they get it. I would be gutted.

2Bdecided
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Re: Auction sale of the Sir Paul Getty gramophone records.

Post by 2Bdecided »

Thanks Steve. You've made me feel a bit better, though I'm guessing we're buying at opposite ends of the market. Spending ¼ of what you took (even on something worth double the amount) would probably see me sleeping in the garden shed for the rest of my days!

I just worry that we're seeing a rash of "original" collectors dying off, and that in a decade or so, such large lots of decent records will never be seen again.

As for machines, reading these boards and talking to collectors, it amazes me how sometimes one specific machine has been owned by five or more collectors, and no one has ever seen another (different) example. I guess that means the machine is really very rare, but not that desirable. I'm talking about off-brand / quirky stuff with no great value. I know that there are tens of some of the most desirable machines out there, if you have the cash.

Where do all the really nice machines go? Or come from? I see pictures of American collections with rows of mint machines lined up. I know people refinish cabinets etc, but even allowing for this, a lot of what's sold over here is complete tat.

Cheers,
David.

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Steve
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Re: Auction sale of the Sir Paul Getty gramophone records.

Post by Steve »

Where do all the really nice machines go? Or come from? I see pictures of American collections with rows of mint machines lined up. I know people refinish cabinets etc, but even allowing for this, a lot of what's sold over here is complete tat.
Indeed! Words taken from my very mouth (on numerous occasions). It's worth remembering that the US market is 100's of times BIGGER. Many more machines exist because so many were made there originally. If you take the HMV 202/3 and compare it to say, a Victor Credenza, the HMV's were sold in less than 1000 units (combined)whereas the production numbers for the latter is several hundred thousand!

What your/my assessment doesn't answer though is why the stuff here is generally very poor quality and in a very poor condition. A well known (if not necessarily universally respected) dealer has suggested that in Britain machine collectors are older retired or semi-retired men who come from engineering backgrounds and like making things with their hands. These sort of people will relish the opportunity to buy incomplete, damaged or broken machines and to bring them back to life. The market for high-end machines in the UK is very very small. There are only a handful of serious collectors with the resources to buy the best items. As a consequence of this, especially going back 15-25 years ago, all the best machines were shipped to the Far East and Europe to 'money people'. According to the dealer, in Europe (and the Far East) if such a thing as a typical collector exists, they are more professional type or senior managerial type, owners of industry etc. These people pay top money for everything and expect the very very best for it. None of the tat you mention would get within a kilometre of their grand and beautiful houses and quite rightly so! To answer your question with my theory then, I suspect we have already lost most of the great stuff to overseas buyers with greater financial clout and commitment to the preservation of our musical heritage.

So are UK collectors the 'runts of the gramophone world'? Worth debating maybe.
Last edited by Steve on Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

CarlosV
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Re: Auction sale of the Sir Paul Getty gramophone records.

Post by CarlosV »

The auction results indicate that the only machines that consistently fetch high prices (from GBP100 to 300) are the most common of them all: 101 and 102 HMV portables. This tells me that most of the buyers are casual passers-by, not collectors, who will buy a familiar machine with a recognized brandname to have as a curio at their homes.

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Steve
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Re: Auction sale of the Sir Paul Getty gramophone records.

Post by Steve »

The auction results indicate that the only machines that consistently fetch high prices (from GBP100 to 300) are the most common of them all: 101 and 102 HMV portables. This tells me that most of the buyers are casual passers-by, not collectors, who will buy a familiar machine with a recognized brandname to have as a curio at their homes.
That is so nearly correct but for one small point: the buyers yesterday were ALL dealers apart from about three of us in the saleroom. So the expensive (for what they were) portables went to dealers to THEN sell on to the very people CarlosV has indicated. In that summary I am in full agreement. But the casual buyers were not around yesterday. By that very definition, how would they even have known about this sale, let alone be interested enough to go there? It was not exactly highly publicised.

Starkton
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Re: Auction sale of the Sir Paul Getty gramophone records.

Post by Starkton »

I took time off for Tuesday afternoon to participate in the Sir Paul Getty auction by internet. I concentrated on half a dozen items I have never seen in specialised record auctions over the last fifteen years. No bargains were to be expected in this illustrious group, and I haven't been disappointed, but I won them all and spent some extra money on a few lots which werde sold just above the reserve in that memorable auction.

About 50% of the lots didn't reach the reserve or flopped completely. Some reserves, especially for the "lesser items," which could also be obtained in other auctions, were unrealistic. Furthermore, it would have been better to divide the lots. For example, I wanted the Tannhaeuser by Bispham, but didn't like his other two 12" discs, therefore I renounced.

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