Is this Gramophone Real?

[Garret]

Hello all!

Is this gramophone real? If so, what model is it? When was it made, for export?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEAT-100-ORIG ... 0937869230

[epigramophone]

The machine looks like an HMV Model 25, made between 1924 and 1927, which was catalogued in the UK. Similar machines were, however, assembled in Calcutta using locally made cabinets, and this is probably what we have here.

I do not think it is "100% Original" as the seller claims. Certainly in the UK version the horn originally fitted would have been a black painted "Morning Glory" of 23.5 inches diameter. The "Witches Hat" horn fitted to this example looks more like 1905 than 1925, but Indian made machines can sometimes be a law unto themselves.

The Exhibition soundbox would be correct for an early example. Later examples were fitted with the No.4.

This would be a desirable machine if only the asking price allowed for the extra cost of obtaining a correct horn, assuming of course that one could be found. If the existing horn is a period one and not a reproduction, it could be sold to help with the cost of a "Morning Glory".

[2Bdecided]

Divide the price by four, include the right horn, and then it would be interesting.

Cheers,
David.

[2Bdecided]

Divide the price by four, include the right horn, and then it would be interesting.

Cheers,
David.

[Steve]

Divide the price by four, include the right horn, and then it would be interesting.

Yeah, right! When did you last see an HMV 25 with or without a MG horn for a ¼ of this price? Contrary to what's been said here, this is a completely genuine HMV 25 (the cabinet is identical to its UK counterpart) and because it was made in Calcutta it might well be correct with that horn! The problem we have now that a book on HMV is out is that everybody just lazily scans that book and states what is in there verbatim. The colonial models are not in that book apart from three portables and an Empire horn model. Similarly, none of the European HMV models are in there either. This makes identification of foreign models potentially difficult but that's not the fault of the book - the information is scant and those who own it do not part with it!

You have to forget everything you think you know and understand about UK models when you examine the foreign breed.

This machine is expensive, granted, but probably about twice what a comparable UK 25 would be, not four times. BUT, given this is in India and the numbers of teak variables are an unknown quantity, I would say it is worth it for a punt so long as anyone can verify that the horn is a genuine one. Better pictures would probably enable this. Looking at it again, I do think the horn is genuine and right for this. It appears to be a nickel plated brass example in well worn condition - unlikely a fake or copy. The back-bracket is also plated whereas the UK variant was simply painted black. This makes this Indian example unique for a machine this late in the game and probably quite a rarity.

But please do not simply dismiss anything that isn't in the book! I have already found a machine that is not in there due to its "foreign" status but one which is, in my opinion, better and more interesting than most of the horn models available in the UK.

PS - I see someone without the blinkers has already bought this - good luck to them and well done for it, they have another fine machine that isn't in that book!

[2Bdecided]

I wasn't thinking about a book. I was thinking of a gramophone for sale thousands of miles away, from a seller who never seems to have sold a gramophone before, and has never sold anything for that much before. I was also thinking of other similar, if not identical machines, that do show up for £500. One late-ish model of HMV horn gramophone is about as good as another IMO. I'll run for cover now .

If this is the original horn, it makes it better. If the finish is original, better still. Even so, it's still overpriced.

I don't have some narrow minded idea about what constitutes a desirable horn gramophone, but models where no one on earth can be sure which part is original can make for an uncomfortable purchase.

Cheers,
David.

[Steve]

I wasn't thinking about a book.

I wasn't suggesting you were, but the previous poster mentioned it and it has had several mentions in quite a few threads on this forum, which suggests to me that it is the immediate "go-to reference" guide for anyone seeking clarification of machine identification.

I was thinking of a gramophone for sale thousands of miles away, from a seller who never seems to have sold a gramophone before, and has never sold anything for that much before.

Distance shouldn't matter really unless you have a dealer living next door to you who sells lots of interesting and rare items cheaply? Sellers who have not sold a gramophone before I usually my preference these days. Those who sell regularly tend to have access to lots of parts and spares and other dealers. You can end up with a liquorice allsort if you're not careful. There are some UK dealers who I would never buy from for that reason. One in particular has probably assembled a machine from disparate parts whilst I've typed this response!

I was also thinking of other similar, if not identical machines, that do show up for £500. One late-ish model of HMV horn gramophone is about as good as another IMO.

Agh! The very epitome of what makes a collector a collector! Words and phrases like "nearly" or "as good as" or "similar to" demonstrate the differences between a specific collector as opposed to a general horder of machines. Nearly isn't good enough, if you are looking for anything specific. A 163 is almost a 193 whilst a 193 is almost a 202. But they are not the same and serious collectors will want the best or a targeted machine not something that is approximate in the minds of others. "Nearly" isn't good enough! If it isn't the same, it isn't the same!

I'll run for cover now .

Better get your running shoes on!

If this is the original horn, it makes it better. If the finish is original, better still. Even so, it's still overpriced.

Says who?

I don't have some narrow minded idea about what constitutes a desirable horn gramophone, but models where no one on earth can be sure which part is original can make for an uncomfortable purchase.

There is always someone out there who can be as near to certain as it is possible to be that something is correct. You might not know them but don't assume that they do not exist. I don't think the buyer of this machine was a fool. Do you?

[CarlosV]

The so-called "Colonial" models remain largely undocumented, in particular the external horn ones. This creates a certain level of uncertainty when models like this show up in the market. HMV was no different than the other big ones like Columbia and Victor when they dealt with the export markets. There is no coherence in the use of the parts as found in the comparable models made for the domestic markets. I have a number of examples of this, like one of the smaller HMVs (the 29) that is fitted with a tone arm made for the nursery machine, which was an anachronism by the late twenties/early thirties when I presume the HMV 29 was put on the market (but fitted well in the small housing). I posted photos of it on the "other UK" forum some time ago. It is plausible therefore that the horn and reproducer of the machine that was sold on ebay are indeed the original ones.

I have also a Columbia portable made in China, the equivalent of the 113, which looks like it, except for the planar tonearm instead of the curved one in the US and UK models.

Then as now, the companies used their colonial markets (now called developing countries) to dump their outdated surplus. A blessing in hindsight for us collectors that can rejoice in the findings of machines such as the one discussed in this thread.

[epigramophone]

As I said in my previous post, Indian made machines can sometimes be a law unto themselves, but I still have my doubts as to whether that horn started life on that machine. In the absence of any evidence such as a catalogue illustration (catalogues were produced for Indian made machines) we will never know.

As the introduction to the HMV book makes clear, it would never have been published if the authors had attempted to identify every version of every overseas model.

[Steve]

As the introduction to the HMV book makes clear, it would never have been published if the authors had attempted to identify every version of every overseas model.

True! I do wish that someone with access to the information would compile a book of the more interesting continental HMV variants. Has anyone ever seen the SPANISH HMV horn machines? They are quite incredible. I have seen 6 different cabinet designs for horn models that make the UK machines look as boring as..........an Edison phonograph!!!!