Need advice restoring frame of Lumiere diaphragm on HMV 460

[snallast]

Finally I'm restoring a machine I bought in bad condition from a dealer (I wrote about this dealer here http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... =2&t=12677).

So far it's come along quite well, I've done the motor, the cabinet, and even managed to get all the fungus spots off the diaphragm and it looks pretty good.

Now, the bent frame is something I won't start on without some advice from someone if possible! I'm afraid the wooden pole that transports the sound on the backside will snap if I simply start bending and don't know how the paper diaphragm will respond to a new position when you bend the frame - and how does one go about bending the frame anyway?

Grateful for advice!!

snallast

[CarlosV]

I suggest you remove the wooden rod from the back side before trying to unbend the frame. It takes unscrewing the center screw and the other screw at the needle holder. However, have you tried to play it as-is? if the sound is good, I would leave it. The problem with unbending the frame is that you risk removing the gold paint if you use pliers, or even by the straightening action, and it will not look good. The frame is aluminum, it is thin and quite malleable, so you can try to straighten it carefully with your hands.

[snallast]

It sounds ok. Maybe the best option is just to leave as is - the idea of bending it with my hands does'nt really thrill me, a slip and that's the end of that...

[snallast]

Anyone else out there with any ideas on how to approach this?? Has anyone heard of a Steven Miller - who is supposed to be an expert in the field, and his whereabouts?

snallast

[Steve]

Has anyone heard of a Steven Miller - who is supposed to be an expert in the field, and his whereabouts

Yeah, he's a really cool guy and knows so much about these machines!

Let moi assist

You need to very carefully unscrew every bolt that goes through the circular aluminium frame connecting the "spider" support to it. Then unscrew the nut in the centre of the diaphragm that holds the centre compressible "hub" in place via a threaded wire. You might need to remove some beeswax before finding the nut - this has a slotted head. When you are sure that nothing is holding the frame/diaphragm to the support, pull the frame towards you and slide the wire out. When you have the diaphragm/circular frame separated, simply lay it on a perfectly flat surface and use your thumbs to gently press the aluminium down to flatten out the twisted and bent areas. Yes, just use your thumbs or fingers, nothing else. The gilt finish and alumium is extremely fragile and finger pressure is enough. When I've replaced diaphragms in the past I have used a purpose-made jig which allows me to crimp the 'U' section frame together, working around in a circle. This has been necessary because I have had to open the frame up to remove torn paper and to refit new.

In your case, the above more drastic measures should not be necessary. Be very careful removing the bolts and replacing them. One slip of the screw-driver and..........

[snallast]

Well thanks a lot! I'm going for it! \Great advice, if I get stuck I'll post a "HELP" here...

I saw the machine you (?) rebuilt that was for sale on ebay, looked really good, actually better than any I've seen! The paper in this case is good enough to keep / it was really mouldy but I cleaned it as if had been goldplated metal and that worked / it has a few tears but I should be able to fix them, maybe glueing a thin stiff paper on the backside molded to fit the area?

Is it true that these machines wear records in a much shorter time and that's the reason they canned the model? Anyhow I find it's so absolutely artdeco beautiful that it might be worth it...

There's a spring keeping the weight off the record / is it adjustable in the sense that more or less pressure could be chosen for less wear? Thanks again for the advice, not easy to come by
greetings H (Seville, Spain)

[Steve]

Thank you for the positive comments on the diaphragms. Yes, it was me who made the one you saw on eBay recently. I have made about a dozen over the past 20 years.

That adjustment you've referred to does affect the "weight" of the tracking. It is possible to lighten the load, so to speak. There is not much evidence that these wore out records and they were very popular models for a very short time. The main issue was that they utilised a design that pre-dates WW1, or 1909 to be more precise, and therefore they were designed to play ACOUSTIC records. No one knows quite why it took so long for the final machine design to be put into production but by 1923/4 when they arrived, the models would only have a short shelf life before the advent of electrical recording would bring about their demise. Whilst the Lumiere design can cope with early electrical recordings, it was not really designed for a recording with such a wide frequency range.

[snallast]

It's true that the acoustic records sound best on this gramophone, although much later recordings with an even and not so strong sound like piano concertos and the like sound really good too!

I could'nt imagine a harder thing to build than this diaphragm! No way! A fantasy! I'd love to actually hear one of your renovated machines play!!

I had a 460 back in 1964 with a few tears and rips and my father kidded me about how maybe His Masters Voice had a stack of new ones lying in an attic in London (it was only 30 yrs later, maybe they did!) we never actually got around to asking unfortunately!

This nut in the center of the diaphragm then, is to be screwed off from the front I take it (picture) using maybe a pair of fine plyers or the like?
When I got the machine it had like a black button in the middle. Transporting it to Spain it disappeared in the box, nowhere to be found I think it might have exploded or turned to dust... anyway - was this then just a piece of black wax then?

Here's an advertisement for the machine from PUNCH (1924) and judging from the picture, these diaphragms SURE are fragile from the very start - there's ALREADY a dent in the diaphragm in the actual ad (bottom part)!!!

[VintageTechnologies]

Every time I see pictures of the coveted Lumiere, I am reminded of an unhappy fishing story about "the one that got away".

Thirty years ago my new mother-in-law and sister-in-law used to comb through the west end of Houston, Texas looking for yard sales on the weekend; they would visit dozens in a day. I always hoped they would alert me to any interesting records or phonographs they might run across, but they were pretty lax about reporting back. One day, however, the SIL casually remarked about seeing a phonograph, but unfortunately they all looked alike to her. The interrogation began - what did it look like? What emerged was that it cost $150, was a floor model, and that it had some kind of golden "horn" that looked like a "Japanese fan". Huh? What did she mean by that? It slowly dawned on me what she had seen. Panic! Where is it? She could not recall; they had been everywhere and did not write down the address. Please think! She wasn't all that bothered to remember, it just wasn't that important to her.

I have yet to ever see one, except in pictures. They evidently don't grow on trees in Houston.

[Lucius1958]

maybe glueing a thin stiff paper on the backside molded to fit the area?

Using heavy paper might affect the diaphragm's sound. Eric Reiss recommends using the sort of fine tissue used by book repairers (the type known as kizukishi would be a good choice); you tear out a small piece of tissue (the ragged edges will blend better than a cleanly cut edge), wet it with wheat paste, and lay it over the tear, using a fine soft brush to smooth the patch down. If you do this carefully, the repair should be nearly invisible.

Having done a good bit of book repair in my time, I would endorse this method.

Bill