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 Post subject: Re: EMG Conversions
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:54 pm 
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Victor VI
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Since this thread is now at an end and the pictures removed I suggest the thread be deleted- it was not without interest but I can't see that keeping it will be of any use to posterity.

That conversion from a Lumiere WAS interesting, but I swear I saw pictures of an HMV cabinet machine (something similar to a VV XVI) which had been quite ludicrously converted with a huge bracket on the back. I am probably mistaken as to the actual details.


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 Post subject: Re: EMG Conversions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:49 am 
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Victor II
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:17 am
Posts: 299
I find it very strange when people make rash judgments and statements on authenticity of a gramophone especially when I've seen many dealers deliberately alter machines before selling them to me. "Oh! that soundbox was wrong for that machine so I changed it for the correct one". "That part does not belong to that machine so I am selling it separately".
This all makes it even more difficult for the collector to ascertain authenticity. Easy enough with the mass produced items but with EMG's it adds to the confusion.
This conversion may well have been done by EMG but with all the changes by different hands it has now made it even more difficult to judge.
This wanton butchery by some dealers just to make things fit into their per-conceived ideas is a pain and criminal.

Back to EMG conversions, I have seen several HMV 460 cabinets converted and also a Decca Salon. All of them had the EMG acoustic system, that is the Seymour/Wilson tonearm, the extended tubing under the cabinet and then either a Wilson or Davey Isophonic horn. They all sounded excellent, as good as any comparable EMG. The only conversion I have seen without the extended tubing is 'The first EMG Wilson Combination" on page 26 of Frank's book. I have this gramophone and it is professionally converted and must have been first of it's kind made available commercially.


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 Post subject: Re: EMG Conversions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:29 am 
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Victor IV
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Location: Holy Loch in Argyll and Bute
Quote:
I find it very strange when people make rash judgments and statements on authenticity of a gramophone especially when I've seen many dealers deliberately alter machines before selling them to me. "Oh! that soundbox was wrong for that machine so I changed it for the correct one". "That part does not belong to that machine so I am selling it separately".
This all makes it even more difficult for the collector to ascertain authenticity. Easy enough with the mass produced items but with EMG's it adds to the confusion.
This conversion may well have been done by EMG but with all the changes by different hands it has now made it even more difficult to judge.
This wanton butchery by some dealers just to make things fit into their per-conceived ideas is a pain and criminal.

Back to EMG conversions, I have seen several HMV 460 cabinets converted and also a Decca Salon. All of them had the EMG acoustic system, that is the Seymour/Wilson tonearm, the extended tubing under the cabinet and then either a Wilson or Davey Isophonic horn. They all sounded excellent, as good as any comparable EMG. The only conversion I have seen without the extended tubing is 'The first EMG Wilson Combination" on page 26 of Frank's book. I have this gramophone and it is professionally converted and must have been first of it's kind made available commercially.


That conversion I owned was DEFINITELY done by EMG. The length of the unique etched tone-arm (which was beautifully done I have to add), the quality of the original external finishes and re-use of older gramophone cabinet carcassing to make that top, all suggest EMG in the early penniless days, showing to clients how much better they could make the Lumiere gramophone sound. It might not have been a COMMERCIAL job; it might have been a "bench test" for the back offices of THE GRAMOPHONE magazine but no one else would have done that in 1927-30 and had access to Seymour/Wilson to obtain a UNIQUE tone-arm. All the trial and error of tracking alignment and geometry is evidenced from the tell-tale signs within that cabinet.

If you look at EMG Wilson Horn models of the day they were TERRIBLE quality. Poor cabinets, badly nailed together and crudely cut timber. This, if anything, ties up with that Wilson Horn conversion of the 510. No, I can assure everyone interested in it, that is was most definitely an EMG. A one-off and probably the FIRST horn machine they made. The Meltrope soundbox swap by the last former keeper was not a change for historic revisionism, but more a lucrative economic one. The EMG Exhibition could be sold separately to someone who would pay £200-300 for it alone.

When the conversion was new, the lid flaps would have closed tightly together and the french polished flame mahogany top would have looked quite eye-catching. It would have been neat, if not to everyones taste! Time hasn't been kind to it. The inside was not really all that visible so finer details of construction weren't important. It was the external appearance and sound quality especially that mattered most!

NO WILSON HORN MODELS EVER HAD A U-SHAPED OR LINK TUBE FROM ARM TO HORN. The horns plugged directly into the inverted tone-arm ala HMV/Victor. If you have only seen EMG's with that additional tubing, you have never seen a Wilson Horn Model!

Where is it now? I actually quite miss it although it didn't sound all that good. A 511 was much better and a darn sight prettier to look at!


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 Post subject: Re: EMG Conversions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:04 am 
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Victor IV
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I must also add the question of who else in their right mind would have made that, if not EMG? Do we really think that someone who had spent £50 in 1926 on a brand new 510 would then destroy it only a year or two later by ordering a one-off design of tone-arm from a relatively unknown technical developer of gramophones and THEN spend hours etching that tone-arm with the name of a company that few people would have even heard of? Whilst doing this in his workshop with his wife's permission and approval of the stunning lid design (!!!!), he accidentally discovers the way forward for EMG, a company he doesn't work for or own, and hands them all his hand-written notes in order that they can manufacture better gramophones without him receiving any financial reward. Unlikely story!

So which is the more likely? The fact that this was an original EMG Wilson Horn Model (conversion type) and possibly THE first and only surviving example OR my scenario recounted above?


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 Post subject: Re: EMG Conversions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:56 am 
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Victor III
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 2:04 pm
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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mega-Rare-1st ... 0748597565


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 Post subject: Re: EMG Conversions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:58 am 
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Victor III
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 2:04 pm
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNDdm0ty1IQ


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 Post subject: Re: EMG Conversions
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:29 am 
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Victor III
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 2:04 pm
Posts: 995
estott wrote:
Since this thread is now at an end and the pictures removed I suggest the thread be deleted- it was not without interest but I can't see that keeping it will be of any use to posterity.

That conversion from a Lumiere WAS interesting, but I swear I saw pictures of an HMV cabinet machine (something similar to a VV XVI) which had been quite ludicrously converted with a huge bracket on the back. I am probably mistaken as to the actual details.


More interesting by the hour !


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 Post subject: Re: EMG Conversions
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:49 am 
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Victor II
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:17 am
Posts: 299
Thanks for that Steve. Having not seen that conversion in person, I felt dubious about that tonearm. I've seen several similar types on many machines, perhaps not as long, also the images of the etching looked like it was an amateurish job.

Quote:
NO WILSON HORN MODELS EVER HAD A U-SHAPED OR LINK TUBE FROM ARM TO HORN
The MK VI does not but the MK VIII all have this tubing under the case.

Quote:
If you look at EMG Wilson Horn models of the day they were TERRIBLE quality. Poor cabinets, badly nailed together and crudely cut timber

All the ones I have seen are well constructed, The MK VI tongue and grooved sides although the two that I have seen both had a strange gap on the motorboard. The MK VIII isn't a beauty but not exactly nailed together.


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 Post subject: Re: EMG Conversions
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:02 am 
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Victor IV
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Location: Holy Loch in Argyll and Bute
Quote:
The MK VI does not but the MK VIII all have this tubing under the case.


The Mark VIII is not a "Wilson Horn Model". The WHM specifically referred to the first machines EMG made that offered Wilson's Panharmonic horn - the horn on these models did not have an aluminium collar at the "elbow" ie. was not reinforced. These machines are notable for having the Victor/HMV and indeed all European patented arrangement for the horn/elbow connecting directly to the inverted tone-arm. The Mark VIII was a later machine from 1928 and possibly was influenced by the HMV Model 32 from 1927. The Mark VIII was not sold as a WHM but simply "Mark VIII". This machine had the addition of the 'U' tubing as it was understood to improve the sound by lengthening the acoustic system (as demonstrated by the HMV 32). However the original WHM never had this part as EMG hadn't got to that stage of development yet. The "Mark VIII's" would get the improved horn with aluminium collar in time. Hopefully, Chunny, you will see the clear distinction I am making between the two models of EMG machine? Whilst the "Mark VIII" was supplied with the Wilson Horn, it was not the original WHM as per the example pictured above.

The machine you are referring to as the "Mark VI" is probably what I know as the WHM (where does the "VI" designation come from? I don't recall seeing it in Frank's book). The examples I have seen have been very rough with, as you say, ill-fitting motor boards and lop-sided cabinets! Clearly EMG wasn't using high quality cabinet makers at this point and that is another clear reason to suspect that the HMV 510 conversion shown above was a completely genuine item. If you also consider that the etching was done by hand and not machine stamped, it is very well done. I can't imagine anyone doing a better job today even with all the digital tools at hand.


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 Post subject: Re: EMG Conversions
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:25 am 
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Victor II
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:17 am
Posts: 299
Cannot say I have ever seen a Wilson horn without the collar except for the Bond Cascades.
I refer to the WHM as the MK VI. Frank had suggested that also and had also suggested there might also have been a MK V. I haven't come across any ad's or written documentation to confirm this so we will stick with the WHM.
Here are pictures of one. It has a normal Exhibition soundbox with the only alteration being the replacement of the thin springs with metal lugs .


Attachments:
MK VI b.jpg
MK VI b.jpg [ 294.17 KiB | Viewed 566 times ]
MK VI a.jpg
MK VI a.jpg [ 190.02 KiB | Viewed 566 times ]
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