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 Post subject: Re: George Overstall
PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:34 pm 
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Victor III
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Location: Hampshire, England.
Thank you very much Richard for going to the trouble of taking and posting these excellent photos--- much appreciated---I know what an effort this has been.

It is a fascinating machine/instrument and certainly well built. I agree with Steve's comments about the design seeming to fly in the face of received wisdom. Certainly Percy Wilson would have had something to say I should have thought ! It would, therefore, be particularly fascinating to know more about the ideas behind the design and I wonder if anyone can post the article from the Hillandale News from Issue No.51 in October 1969 ? Chunny perhaps ? Presumably CLPGS permission would be necessary. My copies do not go back that far.

I think I am right in saying that your Expert---also pictured---is a Senior and, if that is the case, I wonder what you make of the comparison between the two instruments given that horn outlet sizes are comparable ? This must be the acid test and could be rather illuminating. The only other EMG/Expert type gramophones that come to mind with partially similar design are the Nimbus instruments which, in my opinion, were not very impressive acoustically when the horns were driven via a parallel bore tonearm. It would be very interesting indeed to hear the direct comparison between your two gramophones in action. Might you be willing to make a couple of YouTube videos for us ?

Could the various tonearm segments be for setting up to play with all three record type soundboxes---lateral cut, Pathé, Edison ?


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 Post subject: Re: George Overstall
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 2:18 am 
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Victor II
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Location: Victoria. Australia
Yes! Thank you very much for the photos. Very intriguing.
Leaving science behind this does still follow similar principals to the re-entrant horns. A Youtube video of the same record played on the Senior and then the Overstall would be a cool and revealing test.

Just a theory: Perhaps designed to be heard close up rather than in the acoustics of a room.
The Nimbus horns follow all the science but then in my opinion failed to capture the music and they released rather poor quality CD's. Did Nimbus use just one microphone?, perhaps they would have had better luck using several microphones and then mixing the sound from many sources.
The best transcribed CD's I have heard are released by Shellman of Japan. They use the HOTOGY gramophone. The recording microphone is positioned right in front of the horn rather than acoustically positioned in the room.

Here is a link to the Hotogy.
http://www.shellman.jp/Site/HOTOGY95.html

I have seen a picture of another gramophone very similar to the Overstall Horn but cannot find it anywhere, lost somewhere in cyberspace.

Quote:
I wonder if anyone can post the article from the Hillandale News from Issue No.51 in October 1969 ? Chunny perhaps ? Presumably CLPGS permission would be necessary.
I would not know how to go about getting permission. I'm surprised it would be needed for something so old. I have the article scanned but will now wait before uploading it.


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 Post subject: Re: George Overstall
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:31 am 
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Victor III
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Location: Hampshire, England.
Chunny---a quick email to the CLPGS chairman Richard Taylor should do the trick. He is extremely helpful and I am sure would give permission immediately as long as you credit the Society in the post. Link below.

r.taylor854@btinternet.com


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 Post subject: Re: George Overstall
PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:23 am 
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Victor II
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Location: Victoria. Australia
Thank you Graham.
Message sent.


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 Post subject: Re: George Overstall
PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:49 pm 
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Victor II
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Here is the article, with the kind permission of the CLPGS.
Unfortunately it does not reveal the reasoning behind the design.


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File comment: Hillandale News #51 October 1969 page 10
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 Post subject: Re: George Overstall
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:10 am 
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Victor II
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Location: Victoria. Australia
I've been studying horn theory and here are my conclusions on having round or square horn shapes.
1. The biggest advantage of a square section is that it is easy to manufacture.
2. Round horns follow theory better than square, rectangular or oval.
3. A square horn is easier to direct to a listening position. Your listening chair.
4. More important is the symmetry of the horn mouth. If it is oval or rectangular, the waves will be limited to the smaller side.
5. Waves do not distort significantly in a square section as they never touch the sharp angles.
6. In square horns the mouth shape is the most important criteria

From what I have read, it does not seem to be much difference in a square or round horn as long as it is exponential.
Mainly, I believe square horns are build because they are easier to build.

I found this picture of The Douglas Fitzpatrick EMG
Perhaps the great Daddy of them all.


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 Post subject: Re: George Overstall
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:34 am 
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Victor Jr
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:03 am
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Thank you Chunny for posting the Overstall article from Hill and Dale News.It is quite fascinating to compare the G.O's comments with the actual instrument, which remains to this day exactly as he built it. I am surprised to learn that it is also somewhat newer than the 1947 build date that I was given, and also that the horn is based on Wilson calculations, and not those of the University of Warwick. When I acquired it, I assumed that the Lenco 88 was a later substitute for an original 78rpm motor, as I believed the gramophone to pre-date the introduction of the LP by Columbia in 1948.This is not the case however, as G.O remarks that he moved his family to Brighton '...some 15 years ago', taking us back to about 1954.


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 Post subject: Re: George Overstall
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:07 pm 
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Victor Jr
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:03 am
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Meo culpa! One should pay closer attention to detail....George Overstall says in his article that he moved to Brighton some 14 years ago, which brings the date of construction forward to about 1955, not '54 as I had noted.


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 Post subject: Re: George Overstall
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:12 pm 
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Victor III
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Thank you for posting the article Chunny and for your conclusions---extremely interesting. The study of the science behind horn theory is exceedingly complex and, of course, the subject of a great many technical books. It is fascinating and fortuitous that you should have posted my old photo of the Fitzpatrick gramophone as this instrument has been the object of serious study this year and a full article will be published here shortly---see separate thread. The horn outlet in this case is trapezoidal which is yet another variation on a theme.


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 Post subject: Re: George Overstall
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:49 pm 
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Victor V
His epigrams are all his own, the man's an epigramophone!
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:21 pm
Posts: 2284
Location: The Somerset Levels, UK.
Alastair Murray has asked me to post this brief Obituary, as he is very busy with other commitments at the moment. It was written by our mutual friend the late Phillip Lewis, whose Expert Senior is now owned by Alastair.

SYDNEY GEORGE OVERSTALL.

George Overstall of Puriton, Somerset died peacefully in Musgrove Park Hospital, Taunton on 1st February 1998 aged 86.

George was known to so many of us as a wise old gramophone man, whose wide knowledge of both music and the acoustic gramophone stretched over more than 70 years. His skill as an amateur engineer produced some of the finest acoustic gramophones, and his replicated EMG soundboxes were a joy to listen to. Some have been used by the Nimbus Record Company to produce their Prima Voce CD's.

He spent the whole of his working life in the tool industry including a reserved occupation during the war, and his workshop in Puriton was a joy to behold.

Sadly in December 1996, due to failing health, he could no longer manage on his own and left his cottage to go into a local nursing home. Much of his workshop and library were literally "lost" to house clearance, but fortunately the giant gramophone was rescued together with a number of soundboxes and some of the dies and materials used to produce EMG diaphragms and other components.

I haven't yet had the heart to play his gramophone as I know it will remind me of the many lovely evenings I spent with him in his cottage, and certain pieces of his favourite music will always now be associated in my mind with George.

His funeral was attended by his two sons, one now living in British Columbia, and by a number of gramophone friends in Somerset.

Phillip Lewis.


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