Weight lifting Expert

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snallast
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Weight lifting Expert

Post by snallast »

I think the 4-spring Expert soundbox is too heavy, so I experimented a little crudely and got good results. The bamboo needles last 3 to 4 times longer and the sound is identical. Also I can play records all the way through now that before wore out the needle before the end. Probably there is less wear on the records as well.

Does anyone know if the EMG pickup arm pictured (from Francis James wonderful book) was invented to remedy this sort of problem? And if so, does anyone have one so that they might be duplicated?

Snal
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Orchorsol
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Re: Weight lifting Expert

Post by Orchorsol »

That's obviously an arm for an electrical pickup, but there was also a counterweight system for the acoustic tonearms, engineered by Ginn's son Joe (who incidentally wrote a booklet about his time working with his father on the gramophones). Here are a couple of photos of my Junior showing the counterweight, attached to the Quinke tube adjuster. The only problem is that when playing a 12" record I can't close the lid for the first 20 to 30 seconds! This wouldn't be an issue with a Senior, which has a different arm base position.

I haven't experimented enough with the Expert counterweight to determine what difference it makes, but I tried an add-on counterweight on an EMG Xb for several months - after many hundreds of records with and without the counterweight at various settings I satisfied myself that it made no discernible difference! Initially I expected the result you suggest, longer fibre and thorn needle life, but had to concede otherwise. I've heard an alternate train of thought along the lines that greater weight compacts the tip more, and keeps it stable. Who knows what's going on at the microscopic level, apart from the obvious point beyond which the tip has "broken".
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Orchorsol
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Re: Weight lifting Expert

Post by Orchorsol »

Here are photos of the other counterweight I mentioned. Judging by the crude pivot design it may have been made by a keen enthusiast back in the day, but I have seen another more or less identical, made from the same fittings.
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BCN thorn needles made to the original 1920s specifications: http://www.burmesecolourneedles.com

Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCe4DNb ... TPE-zTAJGg?

snallast
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Re: Weight lifting Expert

Post by snallast »

Thankyou for the answer and the good photos! That looks like just the thing I need! I love it! Do they ever appear for sale do you think? Or would you let yours serve as a model for someone to make new ones in case there were interest in the expert community? One then, it seems, belongs to an Expert and the other to an EMG - although I see you have an Expert soundbox on it? I like both models, but maybe the first one you posted is a little more elegant.

When I use a Meltrope soundbox the weight is no problem at all - it´s the 4-spring box that´s so heavy! I´ve played enough records to be absolutely sure of the results. The fact they actually made these counterweights back in the day also shows other people probably were experiencing the same thing then.
I get better results all along the line - with worn records, records from the 40-ies and 50-ies - that I simply couldn´t play before at all - and with acoustic and early electrical recordings.

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Orchorsol
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Re: Weight lifting Expert

Post by Orchorsol »

snallast wrote:Thankyou for the answer and the good photos! That looks like just the thing I need! I love it! Do they ever appear for sale do you think? Or would you let yours serve as a model for someone to make new ones in case there were interest in the expert community? One then, it seems, belongs to an Expert and the other to an EMG - although I see you have an Expert soundbox on it? I like both models, but maybe the first one you posted is a little more elegant.

When I use a Meltrope soundbox the weight is no problem at all - it´s the 4-spring box that´s so heavy! I´ve played enough records to be absolutely sure of the results. The fact they actually made these counterweights back in the day also shows other people probably were experiencing the same thing then.
I get better results all along the line - with worn records, records from the 40-ies and 50-ies - that I simply couldn´t play before at all - and with acoustic and early electrical recordings.
Those soundboxes just happened to be on the machines at the time I photographed them several years ago. Normally I too use a 4-spring Expert on the Junior - yes, very heavy though! Another Expert 4-spring I was once offered had some brass filed off to reduce the weight...

I'm not sure I would want to remove the counterweight from the Junior at present (maybe at some point in future) but the other one - which is not an EMG item as such, but made approximately to designs published many years ago - would be very easy to make. Somewhere I have an original image of a generic design - I'll try to find it and post it here.

Really interesting to hear what dramatic results you are experiencing!
BCN thorn needles made to the original 1920s specifications: http://www.burmesecolourneedles.com

Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCe4DNb ... TPE-zTAJGg?

epigramophone
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Re: Weight lifting Expert

Post by epigramophone »

Slightly off topic, but having recently acquired an Expert Minor I have a question.

What exactly is the function of the Quinke Tube? I have tried gradually screwing it in and out, but I am not sure what difference (if any) I should be listening for.

My Minor does not have a counterweight but my Micro-Perophone Chromogram does, and it was standard equipment on this model. It is a simple elegant design which minimises record wear when using steel needles.

Roger.
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Re: Weight lifting Expert

Post by CarlosV »

Orchorsol wrote: I haven't experimented enough with the Expert counterweight to determine what difference it makes, but I tried an add-on counterweight on an EMG Xb for several months - after many hundreds of records with and without the counterweight at various settings I satisfied myself that it made no discernible difference! Initially I expected the result you suggest, longer fibre and thorn needle life, but had to concede otherwise. I've heard an alternate train of thought along the lines that greater weight compacts the tip more, and keeps it stable. Who knows what's going on at the microscopic level, apart from the obvious point beyond which the tip has "broken".
It's interesting to read your experience, as mine has been the opposite! My Expert Junior came with a counter-weight, similar to the one you picture, but it does not interfere with the lid when playing 12-inch records. I found that using it extends the life of the thorns from one side to two or three depending on the record condition. These results prompted me to make a crude counterweight for the EMG with similar results. I also found recently one counterweight designed for the credenza (commented elsewhere in the forum), bought it and the results are excellent, now a thorn lasts for up to four sides, with no detrimental effects to the sound. I even made another crude counterweight for my workhorse machine, a HMV130 (unfortunately without the padding to sit on top, see http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... 14&t=24701), and although results are not spectacular I also increased the life of the thorn, even though the auto brake sometimes causes added wear to the needle that is not present without the counterweight. Based on my experience with these four different machines, I recommend the use of counterweights, as even the crude ones (I made mine using balance weights and wires) are effective to reduce wear. Some trial-and-error is needed though, to find the right amount of off-loading to prevent the needle from rattling in the groove. In any case, the mass of these soundboxes is huge, about 200 grams, and even reducing it by half still imparts a high pressure to the needle.

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Orchorsol
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Re: Weight lifting Expert

Post by Orchorsol »

epigramophone wrote:What exactly is the function of the Quinke Tube?
Nothing more than Ginn's premium gramophonic snake oil as far as any of us have been able to determine! I've never heard any difference either. Maybe someone will enlighten us...
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Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCe4DNb ... TPE-zTAJGg?

snallast
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Re: Weight lifting Expert

Post by snallast »

Orchorsol wrote:
I'm not sure I would want to remove the counterweight from the Junior at present (maybe at some point in future) but the other one - which is not an EMG item as such, but made approximately to designs published many years ago - would be very easy to make. Somewhere I have an original image of a generic design - I'll try to find it and post it here.
I understand. But if you should find the design and post it, that would be very appreciated! The chances of finding an original one are probably microscopic. It´s surprising how few machines originally were equipped with counterweights - the only one I knew of before this thread was the Lumiere 460 from 1923/24.

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Orchorsol
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Re: Weight lifting Expert

Post by Orchorsol »

snallast wrote:I understand. But if you should find the design and post it, that would be very appreciated! The chances of finding an original one are probably microscopic. It´s surprising how few machines originally were equipped with counterweights - the only one I knew of before this thread was the Lumiere 460 from 1923/24.
I certainly will at some point when I can get help to produce suitable drawings, not being an engineer!
BCN thorn needles made to the original 1920s specifications: http://www.burmesecolourneedles.com

Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCe4DNb ... TPE-zTAJGg?

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