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 Post subject: Re: Garrard 201 motors
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 6:08 pm 
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Victor III
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Location: Dover, UK
Here are some photos of the earlier of my two "standard" 201s, installed yesterday in an EMG Mk Xb case. As mentioned before, this originally had a Garrard AC4 electric motor whose baseplate shares exactly the same outer shape and screw fixings, so fitting the 201 is a 100% reversible upgrade. Since the spindle is in the same position, there is no change in playing geometry - tracking alignment being all-important with EMGs and Experts.


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BCN thorn needles made to the original 1920s specifications
www.burmesecolourneedles.com
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 Post subject: Re: Garrard 201 motors
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2016 6:32 pm 
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Victor III
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Location: Dover, UK
And here is the other one, which I imagine must be pretty late, probably early 1950s - designation 201/B/5B. This is the one I have just acquired and is near mint, barely used. It has been boxed up since my friend tested it briefly, many years ago. I was impressed when, after lubricating and installing it, I found the 78 rpm pointer needed no adjustment at all - still set precisely!

This motor unit has the extended speed control plate, which I found would not fit in the normal EMG case shown in the post above - it would have fouled the lid closing. My other EMG Mk Xb shown in the photos below is an original 1930s EMG conversion of a customer's previous gramophone cabinet, in this case a large Orchorsol (EMG offered this service as a cost-saving option; it appears in their literature of the period, and other examples have survived). The case has a little more room and so, happily, I was able to fit this wonderful motor. Serendipity - and again, correct geometry and a perfectly reversible upgrade, since this EMG also had a Garrard AC4 originally.


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BCN thorn needles made to the original 1920s specifications
www.burmesecolourneedles.com
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 Post subject: Re: Garrard 201 motors
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 2:45 am 
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Victor O
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:10 pm
Posts: 98
Location: Somerset UK
What fascinating motors .
I can see why you want to upgrade . The motors originally fitted are pretty poor from what i remember and don't they suffer from pot metal problems ? I think I have one in a Murphy radiogram which has been trouble


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 Post subject: Re: Garrard 201 motors
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 4:28 am 
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Victor III
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Posts: 798
Location: Dover, UK
ALVES wrote:
What fascinating motors .
I can see why you want to upgrade . The motors originally fitted are pretty poor from what i remember and don't they suffer from pot metal problems ? I think I have one in a Murphy radiogram which has been trouble

I think the AC4, 6, 7 (possibly there was an 8 too?) can be made to run well if bearings etc are not too worn, but once the eccentric adjustments at each end of the governer shaft are out of alignment it's a very lengthy and frustrating job to get them to mesh smoothly again. Both of my AC4s were noisy and I could have set about overhauling them - hopefully will do one of these years, for posterity, as they will be labelled up and kept with the EMGs - but with these 201s available it was a no-brainer to upgrade.
BCN thorn needles made to the original 1920s specifications
www.burmesecolourneedles.com


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 Post subject: Re: Garrard 201 motors
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 5:48 am 
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Victor II
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Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:17 am
Posts: 391
Location: Victoria. Australia
So good to see these motors still in working order. Why did I never think of putting one in an EMG..Duh!.
£20 for a DRT/2 .. That's like betting on Leicester City to win at the beginning of the season. I've just been offered these two for £5000 each ...way beyond my budget. I do have one I bought in the 70's for £200, which was big cash back then. I believe they were used "ín the field".
The 201's were used by the BBC from the 40's all the way into the 70's


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 Post subject: Re: Garrard 201 motors
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 6:54 am 
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Victor III
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Posts: 798
Location: Dover, UK
chunnybh wrote:
So good to see these motors still in working order. Why did I never think of putting one in an EMG..Duh!.
£20 for a DRT/2 .. That's like betting on Leicester City to win at the beginning of the season. I've just been offered these two for £5000 each ...way beyond my budget. I do have one I bought in the 70's for £200, which was big cash back then. I believe they were used "ín the field".
The 201's were used by the BBC from the 40's all the way into the 70's

I'm unsure of any definite information, and could be wrong, but I thought EMG occasionally fitted them (at considerable extra cost to the customer, presumably)? The one other source I can think of is an old article in a hi fi magazine about Joe Winstanley's EMG, but who knows whether the 201 in that was an original fitment.

That's my understanding too, that the DRT/2 was designed to be transportable - even if it pulled the engineers' arms out of their sockets! What beautiful (ugly-beautiful) creatures they are in good condition. I have a PDF of a BBC manual somewhere with a few pages on the DRT/2 and others - hard to track down on the net, but still there I think - quite likely you already have it, but please let me know if you'd like me to dig it out Chunny. Yes, I was incredibly lucky with mine - it was a poorly described "sleeper" on eBay about 6 months ago. I've since tracked down an arm for it (albeit the domestic EMI version).

I had no idea the Beeb continues so long with 201s, thank you for the info!
BCN thorn needles made to the original 1920s specifications
www.burmesecolourneedles.com


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 Post subject: Re: Garrard 201 motors
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 7:19 am 
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Victor III
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Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:57 am
Posts: 598
Location: Hampshire, England.
Here's my six penny's worth ! I bought this about a year ago and have done nothing with it to date but have plans to restore and use in due course.

Here is the description which came with it when for sale on eBay:

This is a very low serial Garrard 201B, presumably a type 1, in the rare BBC studio adaption by their own engineering department. The last picture shows it set up in a BBC studio with a parallel tracking arm in a twin deck, a TD7. It has a dual light strobe, & I am guessing the top plate is all BBC design. The main point of the bbc top plate appears to be the complex cueing mechanism, which holds the record at three points and drops it on to the already at speed motor, as seen in the curved chrome part and its opposite element, at 3 and 9 o'clock as you look down at the platter.

This is a very early example, with a serial number of 1022, which suggests its the 22nd one made of the exact model.When I type the patent no. in to a search, it comes up with the details of the first fine groove player, so maybe this can play 33rpms, as well (mentioned below), but rely on your own research for that, do not make it a deal breaker when bidding, and no returns on this one due to age, sold as seen, as it will require careful attention to the mechanism I would assume before starting it up - its grease will be ancient by now at the very least for example, although I am able to turn the platter with ease. The BBC top plate has a model number also, DETU/1. The 1958 BBC mobile studio unit had four of these fitted in to its front bay for outside broadcasts, as can be seen in the BBC monograph No.20, page 9, which can be found online.
The bearing looks very similar if not identical to those used on 301 and 401 models.I was told that this is a direct drive induction motor. There is enough poles to run direct off 50Hz mains and no gearing. speed control by governor, so that does suggest someone clever enough could make this run at all three common speeds by an external controller.
As you can see, a bit of age related spotting to the chrome, alloy and paint finish. The outdoor pics were used to show all detail but if anything they seem to exaggerate the state of the finish, as it was stored in a dry cool room for the past 30 years that I know of, possibly more than that. All the alloy parts could be buffed to like new if that is your preferred look, and the top plate paint would be an easy repair as it is black and flat. I have only given it the lightest of wipe overs to show it is all there. The mat is still supple, but as it is plain, it could easily be replaced also with a new cut out of same thickness rubber sheet.


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 Post subject: Re: Garrard 201 motors
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 8:38 am 
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Victor O
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:10 pm
Posts: 98
Location: Somerset UK
These things are of amazing quality .
I did wonder what arm was fitted and I did see the domestic one on eBay that sold recently .Presumably designed for steel needles ?
What needle type did they use in the studio? I have always wondered how they played the non shellac records often used in the war ? I cant remember what they are called ?


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 Post subject: Re: Garrard 201 motors
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 10:48 am 
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Victor V
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Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania
Truly a beautiful piece of machinery, and so massive that it might serve as a potter's wheel! But seriously, what has been the experience of users with the idler wheel/rim drive system? Back in the 1960s I owned a turntable with such a drive, marketed under the name "Knight" by the US (Chicago) firm Allied Radio Corporation. I didn't own it long enough for problems to develop, but I would not have been surprised if the rubber idler wheel developed flat spots, especially if parked "in gear," so to speak, resulting in speed irregularities, or hardening of the rubber as it aged, leading to rumble. Have such problems been reported with the Garrard?


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 Post subject: Re: Garrard 201 motors
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 1:19 pm 
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Victor II
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Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:17 am
Posts: 391
Location: Victoria. Australia
Quote:
have a PDF of a BBC manual somewhere with a few pages on the DRT/2 and others - hard to track down on the net, but still there I think - quite likely you already have it, but please let me know if you'd like me to dig it out Chunny

Yes please, a link to the pdf would be great.
Well done Graham, a beauty, I wondered where that went.
Henry, the Garrard 201 series are direct drive so their main problem is spindle wear.
The Garrard 301 % 401 are idle wheel and do need replacing in time. Fortunately there are so many still in service that there is always someone making new replacements parts including the all important springs on the idlers.


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