HMV table machines post-1929: what kind of horn?

[Menophanes]

Recent references in another thread to the transition from the 'saxophone' to the 're-entrant' style of horn in HMV floor-standing gramophones have set me wondering how, if at all, this change of design affected this company's table-top models. I know that the old doors-and-louvres pattern as used since about 1912 gave way to an ornamental grille backed with cloth and presumably intended to suggest a radio (the Model 130 being an example), but was there any significant change inside the case? I find it hard to see how the re-entrant principle could have been applied in any valid form within the limited interior space of a table model; but I may be wrong in this.

Oliver Mundy.

[soundgen]

The horns were very ordinary and in noway "re-entrant "

[OrthoFan]

...was there any significant change inside the case? I find it hard to see how the re-entrant principle could have been applied in any valid form within the limited interior space of a table model; but I may be wrong in this.

Oliver Mundy.

Not re-entrant, but exponential.

(HMV 130 horn -- not mine)

The re-entrant (folded) horn, itself, was basically a compromise; done to fit the very long and large exponentially tapered horns--required for proper sound reproduction--inside the cabinets. It's the horn's exponential taper that enhances the overall sound quality, and not the fact that the horn is folded or re-entrant.

BTW, in the US market, the Victor VV-1-90 tabletop Victrola -- http://www.victor-victrola.com/1-90.htm -- which was about the same size as the HMV 130, was fitted with a small wooden folded (bifurcated) exponential horn. Also, bifurcated horns were used in UK made Columbia Viva-Tonal table models--though they were made of metal.

OrthoFan

[epigramophone]

Many UK collectors consider that the HMV 130 has the best sound quality of any table model.

[bulleid_pacific]

I've just finished restoring a 130 and it certainly sounds really good. But even the baby brother 104 (which I've also just finished) is quite a way ahead of the previous generation 103/109/126 etc. The No 5a/b soundboxes probably help over the No 4 on more modern electrical discs and the horn design is certainly better....

[Menophanes]

My thanks to all who have replied. – Herewith, for comparison, is the horn of a Model 109: longer overall and (unlike that of the 130) laterally symmetrical at the mouth, but obviously more convoluted and I think shallower, since it has to pass under the motor rather than round it.

I now run this machine with a 5B sound-box, which cost half as much as the gramophone itself but has proved a thoroughly worthwhile investment. The original No. 4 (a good example of its kind) still had some of the penetrating quality of the old Exhibition, giving the impression (I know I am speaking unscientifically) that the sound-waves were being forcibly projected out of the horn instead of propagating naturally – a quality which has its own kind of excitement, especially when applied to the higher brass or to a strong voice, but which is nonetheless fundamentally artificial. By contrast, the 5B allows me to forget that I am listening to an acoustic reproducer, so that I can feel there is nothing between me and the record; and this is something I have not experienced for half a lifetime. How nearly this approaches the standards of the Model 130 is of course more than I can say (likewise, I have never directly heard an EMG or any of the big post-1929 internal-horn machines), but I think it will serve for the rest of my life. Besides, I would miss the facility of stowing needle-boxes and other small requisites behind the doors.

Oliver Mundy.

[epigramophone]

If you want to hear EMG, Expert and large cabinet gramophones "live" instead of just on YouTube, join the CLPGS West of England Group and come to our meetings. Many of our members own and use these machines. Details at www.clpgs.org.uk.

[Menophanes]

If you want to hear EMG, Expert and large cabinet gramophones "live" instead of just on YouTube, join the CLPGS West of England Group and come to our meetings. Many of our members own and use these machines. Details at http://www.clpgs.org.uk.

Thank you. I have been thinking of re-joining the Society for some time (I was briefly a member as a schoolboy fifty years ago) and as a result of your suggestion I have now done so.

Oliver Mundy.

[Wagnerian]

If you want to hear EMG, Expert and large cabinet gramophones "live" instead of just on YouTube, join the CLPGS West of England Group and come to our meetings. Many of our members own and use these machines. Details at http://www.clpgs.org.uk.

Thank you. I have been thinking of re-joining the Society for some time (I was briefly a member as a schoolboy fifty years ago) and as a result of your suggestion I have now done so.

Oliver Mundy.

Welcome (back) to the CLPGS, Oliver and thank you for rejoining us. Your membership pack should be with you in the next couple of days.

Very best wishes

Tim W-W

[bulleid_pacific]

Herewith, for comparison, is the horn of a Model 109: longer overall and (unlike that of the 130) laterally symmetrical at the mouth, but obviously more convoluted and I think shallower, since it has to pass under the motor rather than round it.

I now run this machine with a 5B sound-box, which cost half as much as the gramophone itself but has proved a thoroughly worthwhile investment. The original No. 4 (a good example of its kind) still had some of the penetrating quality of the old Exhibition, giving the impression (I know I am speaking unscientifically) that the sound-waves were being forcibly projected out of the horn instead of propagating naturally – a quality which has its own kind of excitement, especially when applied to the higher brass or to a strong voice, but which is nonetheless fundamentally artificial. By contrast, the 5B allows me to forget that I am listening to an acoustic reproducer, so that I can feel there is nothing between me and the record; and this is something I have not experienced for half a lifetime. How nearly this approaches the standards of the Model 130 is of course more than I can say (likewise, I have never directly heard an EMG or any of the big post-1929 internal-horn machines), but I think it will serve for the rest of my life.

I have recently joined the CLPGS too. I was very happy with my 109 (and have a 5b soundbox which fits it, although I usually use the No 4 it came with) and still am but there's no doubt the 104 and especially the 130 are better. The 109, in turn, is better than the 110 and 125 I have, both of which have a No 2 soundbox and are completely out of their depth with electrical recordings. There is definitely an evolutionary improvement over time. I'm now after a 157 (or better still, a 'proper' re-entrant 163). I may not get financial planning permission for the latter!