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 Post subject: Re: French Monarque
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:42 am 
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Victor IV
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Location: Holy Loch in Argyll and Bute
Jerry B. wrote:
What I find interesting is the cover over the front mount hole. Was that cover included with all of the rear mount parts when a machine was converted? Why cover the hole because it's now in the back of the machine and really not seen?

Jerry Blais


Maybe the British / European consumers were a little more particular about how their machines looked, even on the "blind sides"? ;)
As for the plate itself, and to answer your question specifically, yes, the cover was included with all rear mount conversions done by the factory and / or dealerships. However, the one Teak has is the less common of two designs - the other is a little more bulky in appearance. If I can find a picture of that one I'll post it here in this thread.


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 Post subject: Re: French Monarque
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:49 am 
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Victor IV
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Location: Holy Loch in Argyll and Bute
Jerry B. wrote:
I'm certainly no authority on European versions of Victor products and don't pretend to be. Here in the States original owners occasionally upgraded from the black & brass horn to the Flower or wood horn to make their machine more current. Perhaps that practice was less common elsewhere.

I have seen many Victor cabinets factory drilled for either front or rear mount applications. Those machines were built during the transition when any given model could be sold in either configuration. I was suggesting this machine fell into this time period.

My "rigid arm" MS has the back bracket mounted where a tapered arm back bracket is also mounted. Do European collectors refer to front mount setups as "rigid arm"? When the owner of a front mount Victor purchased the assembly to convert his machine to a rear mount was a plug to cover the front mount holes included? I'd still look for small nail holes. If it has little holes around the tapered arm back bracket area it started as a front mount.

Respectfully submitted,
Jerry Blais


I'm not suggesting that outside the States no one ever upgraded their machines but to the original questioner I was suggesting that from a purely and historically accurate perspective the later horn types would be incorrect. After all, anyone can replace a horn at any time but then it no longer reflects the original machine as it was sold. I don't know what terminology European collectors use but my reference to "rigid arm" was to describe the fixed support bracket (arm) that holds the pivoting floating or "travelling" arm. I apologise if my terminology was confusing there; maybe "bracket" is a more appropriate term?


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 Post subject: Re: French Monarque
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:00 pm 
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Victor IV
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:08 pm
Posts: 1543
Location: Harrison Township, MI
jboger wrote:
That being the case, I doubt it started life as a rear-mount machine that someone then converted to a front-mount.



Neither Jerry nor I have suggested that.


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 Post subject: Re: French Monarque
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:52 pm 
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Victor Jr
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Location: Kharkov, Ukraine
I will clarify. Plug on the box the topic starter is not original.The plugs were really used, but looked different.The reason for this was the abundance in the stock housings for the front mounts.And when, in 1903, he invented the tone arm,the case is continued to use.I have a picture of these plugs found! Usually it was a German product.


Attachments:
File comment: image from Russian magazine 1904-1905
DSC00627.JPG
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Grammophone_and_Phonograph_1904_05 разгадка.jpg
Grammophone_and_Phonograph_1904_05 разгадка.jpg [ 230.47 KiB | Viewed 153 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: French Monarque
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:55 pm 
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Victor O
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:55 am
Posts: 87
Location: Vienna/Austria
The picture in the french gramophone catalogue on page 1 suggests otherwise!


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 Post subject: Re: French Monarque
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:30 pm 
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Victor Jr
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Location: Kharkov, Ukraine
from official 1903 catalog


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 Post subject: Re: French Monarque
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:49 pm 
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Victor O
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:55 am
Posts: 87
Location: Vienna/Austria
I see your point, but mine is also valide! :D
We both can be right!


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 Post subject: Re: French Monarque
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:54 pm 
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Victor V
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Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:36 am
Posts: 2195
Location: Delaware
I agree, you could both be right. When the original transition happened from the front mount to the rigid arm like pictured on the Russian catalog above, they included a plug with a holder for a horn crane. The reason for that was that the elbow of the rigid arm was not strong enough to hold a larger horn. I can imagine that a bit later there were conversion kits from front mount to tapered arm. These new elbows were much sturdier and did not need a horn crane. That could have led to supplying a flat plug without a crane holder. This has been discussed here beforehttp://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=28235, but I have not seen any pictures or other proof of such a horn crane, or of a flat plug included in a taper arm conversion kit. I only know that there must have been both types of kits, because there are covers that say "Remove to install Rigid Arm", as well as "Remove to install Tapered Arm" (sorry if my wording isn't exactly correct). Including a crane holder in a tapered arm kit would not have made sense.

Andreas


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 Post subject: Re: French Monarque
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:33 pm 
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Victor O
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:55 am
Posts: 87
Location: Vienna/Austria
I think the true story will be lost forever. Still, I think I can discern my plaque here:


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fullsizeoutput_1d8.jpeg
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 Post subject: Re: French Monarque
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:39 pm 
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Victor O
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:55 am
Posts: 87
Location: Vienna/Austria
is there a bracket, holding the front mount brace? Would that leave an imprint inside the case?


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