HMV Model 163...variations, or not?

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nostalgia
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HMV Model 163...variations, or not?

Post by nostalgia »

I puchased this HMV 163 yesterday. We can see it has no lid transfer, and also the grille cloth is green. In addition the handle knob is not black, and the escutcheon also looks different than on my first 163. I do not yet have a photo of the escutcheon, but can upload it in a day or two, since the machine is in a garage room some miles away, and I forgot to take photos yesterday. These photos are taken by the seller.
So the questions are...did it ever came with a green grille cloth, and are there variations to the escutcheon found on these machines? If the grille cloth is not original, I will purchase a new cloth online that is closer to the gold/brownish color of this cloth found that I have on my first 163, and that also is pictured in the HMG book.
I could not see traces of the transfer being peeled off, but I find it strange that there are no transfer found on the machine, and am already thinking of buying a transfer from Peru...
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epigramophone
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Re: HMV Model 163...variations, or not?

Post by epigramophone »

My guess is that it has been refinished and the grille cloth replaced with whatever the "restorer" had to hand.
Although it is difficult to tell from the pictures, I also suspect that the legs may have been shortened and the stretchers lost.
Look carefully at the pictures in HMG and compare the legs with the seller's pictures.

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nostalgia
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Re: HMV Model 163...variations, or not?

Post by nostalgia »

I think you are right, Roger, that the legs have been shortened, and the stretchers has been removed along with the lower section of the legs.
To be 100% sure I will measure the height of the cabinet in a day or two. The only thing that puzzles me a bit is that I hardly was able to fit it into my car, because of the height, while my first 163 also hardly fit into my car, with the stretchers and legs intact. But, I still believe you are right, there are some inches missing here...
It will also explain the lost lid transfer. I will upload a photo of the escutcheon in a day or two.
I will not keep this machine, it has already been decided, I already have a wonderful unit in my sitting room. I will however service the 32 motor on this machine, clean it and preserve it to my best knowledge before passing it on. I actually now have three model 163 machines, that is two too many, really.
This one will still deliver wonderful music to a new owner, when being restored...and yes...I will buy it a new grille cloth.
I found this one online, that is the closest I could find in appearance, if anyone does not have a better suggestion:

https://www.akustikstoff.com/en/Acousti ... ::778.html
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epigramophone
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Re: HMV Model 163...variations, or not?

Post by epigramophone »

That replacement cloth is probably as good a match as you are likely to find.
I don't know what the man in Peru charges for a lid transfer, but you will get a better price for the machine if it is present.
Collectors like to see a manufacturer's logo on a machine, especially if the logo is for HMV.

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Re: HMV Model 163...variations, or not?

Post by Steve »

The guy in Peru does amazing work and his decal for this shouldn't set you back more than £20 including postage.

Why oh why has someone hacked the legs down and removed the stretchers though? Such a shame. That cloth is not original either.

One final thought on decals: many years ago I bought an HMV No. 7 horn machine in mahogany complete with original (correct mahogany, not mismatched oak like so many Ebay sellers are currently flogging!) wooden horn. It had been stored in an old shed for 60 years and was in a very dirty, tired state. Clearly it had never been restored and no one in the auction room apart from myself and Howard Hope knew it was even an HMV machine because it had no decal on the front. When I cleaned it up (sorry Howard) the French polish was in very good original condition underneath a black layer of hardened crud, with evidence of uniform crazing all over it. The red colour underneath was only lightly faded and otherwise very good. The consensus of opinion amongst esteemed experts at the time was that it had never received a decal in the first place, possibly in error. It is to this day the only such example I have seen so would be easy to spot should it reappear on the market. I tell this because it is just possible that there are some other HMV machines out there sans decals, which have not been tampered with.

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Re: HMV Model 163...variations, or not?

Post by mrrgstuff »

Steve wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:35 am
Why oh why has someone hacked the legs down and removed the stretchers though? Such a shame.
Woodworm, possibly?

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Re: HMV Model 163...variations, or not?

Post by Steve »

mrrgstuff wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:32 pm
Steve wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:35 am
Why oh why has someone hacked the legs down and removed the stretchers though? Such a shame.
Woodworm, possibly?
It's oak so unlikely.

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nostalgia
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Re: HMV Model 163...variations, or not?

Post by nostalgia »

The gramophone has been in the same family at least 50-60 years, but I have no knowledge what happened to it before that time. According to the seller it has not been in use for decades.
I find it strange too that so many amendments have been done to it. Cutting the feet, changing the grille cloth, re finish of the cabinet ( or whatever have caused the removal of the lid decal) and...I will tomorrow take photo of the strange escutcheon and upload so you can see it.

I will definitely buy a decal from Peru, along with a new grille cloth. There is nothing to do with the feet, but at least it stands pretty solid on the rest of the feet, and the horn and sound box etc is intact, so it definitely deserves a new life. The motor is good looking, no missing parts, and it takes the time it takes to clean it, been there done that quite some times already with the 32 motor...even if I don't particularly enjoy to remove the springs and spend hours cleaning the springs and the sprint container on this motor...

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Re: HMV Model 163...variations, or not?

Post by Watanabehi »

nostalgia wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:54 am I think you are right, Roger, that the legs have been shortened, and the stretchers has been removed along with the lower section of the legs.
To be 100% sure I will measure the height of the cabinet in a day or two. The only thing that puzzles me a bit is that I hardly was able to fit it into my car, because of the height, while my first 163 also hardly fit into my car, with the stretchers and legs intact. But, I still believe you are right, there are some inches missing here...
It will also explain the lost lid transfer. I will upload a photo of the escutcheon in a day or two.
I will not keep this machine, it has already been decided, I already have a wonderful unit in my sitting room. I will however service the 32 motor on this machine, clean it and preserve it to my best knowledge before passing it on. I actually now have three model 163 machines, that is two too many, really.
This one will still deliver wonderful music to a new owner, when being restored...and yes...I will buy it a new grille cloth.
I found this one online, that is the closest I could find in appearance, if anyone does not have a better suggestion:

https://www.akustikstoff.com/en/Acousti ... ::778.html
The grille cloth you show looks nice, but it seems darker than original cloth. Is it thin enough to tuck in the end of the cloth into the groove of the frame using strips of original wood? Please post the photo of the result. Thank you and good luck.

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Re: HMV Model 163...variations, or not?

Post by Oedipus »

Given the rather streaky appearance of the wood, inside and out, I'd say that the whole thing has been stripped and repolished. Why? -- I long ago gave up trying to guess why previous owners of anything have done the things they did. The feet might have been damaged in a flood, or perhaps the user was what I remember Ted Cunningham, a former CLPGS Chairman, describe as 'a person of less than normal loftiness.'

The oval winder escutcheon was standard on all HMV cabinet models with the 32 motor, as far as I can recall, but the absence of black on the winder knob is all part of the 'refinishing' -- the original back lacquers often starts to chip and fall off, and someone has simply removed what was left.

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