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 Post subject: Re: A gold coloured HMV No. 16 Soundbox ?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:25 pm 
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Victor V
His epigrams are all his own, the man's an epigramophone!
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:21 pm
Posts: 2859
Location: The Somerset Levels, UK.
Oedipus wrote:
The 158 is not a 're-entrant' model (Re-entrant' horns divide into four sections). The 158 was the successor to the 157 (nothing illogical in that!)and has a similar bifurcated horn (i.e. two sections, not four). Both were cheaper than the 163, hence a lower model number. 'His Master's Gramophone', which I wrote with Brian Oakley in 2011, explains all the HMV acoustic model numbers and dates. The 153 number resulted from the simplification of the acoustic cabinets and table models to three, all with numbers in the 150s. The 153 number makes sense when you note that its smaller sibling was a 152, and the table version a 150.
Incidentally, the red leather 102 portable may always have had a gold No 16 soundbox; the No 16 was replaced by the 5a in 1934, and the red leather model probably remained on sale from that time only as long as there were remaining stocks, for which gold No 16 soundboxes already existed. There might have been some gold 5As still around (from Models 194 and 203, discontinued in 1933), so it would be interesting to hear from anyone with a leather 102 with a gold 5A soundbox!


Here is my Red Leather 102, Serial Number 102076859, with it's gold 5A soundbox :


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 Post subject: Re: A gold coloured HMV No. 16 Soundbox ?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:53 pm 
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Victor IV
Edison, Columbia, Victor, Pathé...and oddball makes
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:06 pm
Posts: 1365
Thanks Oedipus! I've had the little thing for a really long time and there just isn't much info online about that model - or many other HMV models, for that matter. So this is really helpful. Is your book still available?

I'm interested in the details of that horn. Poking around and armed with this new knowledge of 150-series model numbers, I believe I found pictures of it, in a No. 157, here on this forum:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4596&p=24378#p24378

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It would be nice to also see x-ray drawings to highlight the differences between the 4- and 2-section HMV horns. We can see the split into two widening passages from above. I suppose we can assume the split continues to two side-by side openings in the front, but I find no photos.

If it's just half of a "re-entrant" horn, why can't that term be used on it? I note that the catalog calls it "a horn of considerable length" only. It's hard to compare it to the big re-entrant horn and see whether it really is just half of one. They seem sort of different, but pondering the cutaway view I can visualize otherwise.

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As far as the appropriate terminology goes, the Victor counterparts were all called "orthophonic" but that included:

- the folded horns, with multiple splits in the air passage and scientifically-curved passage walls (same overall design, scaled up and down in size for the various machines)

- the simpler straight horns (but also with scientifically-curved walls)

So what do HMV collectors call the category of machines with what might be called "engineered" horns?


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 Post subject: Re: A gold coloured HMV No. 16 Soundbox ?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:25 pm 
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Victor III
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 6:18 am
Posts: 991
PeterF wrote:

So what do HMV collectors call the category of machines with what might be called "engineered" horns?

The only terminology I heard is the re-entrant horn. Other manufacturers had different names. But RCA Victor kept the orthophonic name for decades, advertising their records as orthophonic high fidelity up to the sixties.


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 Post subject: Re: A gold coloured HMV No. 16 Soundbox ?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:51 pm 
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Victor IV
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:12 pm
Posts: 1560
PeterF wrote:
Thanks Oedipus! I'm interested in the details of that horn. Poking around and armed with this new knowledge of 150-series model numbers, I believe I found pictures of it, in a No. 157, here on this forum...


Hi Peter:

Here's a couple more photos of the HMV 157 folded exponential horn:

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FROM: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HMV-MODEL-15 ... 7675.l2557

From what I can tell, the two sections simply join at the back of the horn.

HTH,
OrthoFan


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 Post subject: Re: A gold coloured HMV No. 16 Soundbox ?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:58 pm 
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Victor O
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:59 am
Posts: 59
The word used by the Gramophone Company for all the new horns of 1927 onwards was 'exponential'. The Re-entrant tone-chamber was called 'Exponential Re-Entrant' in full. But these terms applied only to the horn, not to the whole system in the way that Orthophonic seems to have done. Not having been present when the decision was made to call only the four-section horns Re-entrant, I cannot tell you what the reason was, except that there was clearly a desire to emphasise the very special quality of these larger horns. The 157 horn was simply 'Exponential', although in later years, the two-section horn was often described as 'double' or 'divided exponential'. Exponential was also used of the non-divided horns used in the table grands. 'Logarithmic' is another term I have seen.

Collectors in the UK have no overall name for this generation of gramophones, but those in the know do use the Re-entrant name specifically of the 163, 193/194, 202/203 and the Automatic 1. The 157 horn is indeed half a re-entrant in effect, and a very successful half -- it sold in vast numbers. The 158 and 153 are relatively scarce, and not popular with collectors when they do turn up. The 157 is just as good, and occupies less space!

Thanks, Roger for the 102 pic. We need some more examples now, to establish whether late leather 102s always had 5As, or whether (as with so many early 102s) their original No 16s were replaced early on with 5As or 5Bs. (Your serial number is high enough to indicate a date of 1934 or late 1933. Alas, we have no production or sales figures for this period, so we cannot tell how high this numbering system went before changing in 1935. I forgot to mention that in my previous post.


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 Post subject: Re: A gold coloured HMV No. 16 Soundbox ?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:08 pm 
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Victor IV
Edison, Columbia, Victor, Pathé...and oddball makes
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:06 pm
Posts: 1365
Ok now I have a great visualization of the "half-horn" except for what one sees when looking squarely into the mouth.

That is, do we see a division all the way to the front edge, and is that division merely a flat vertical panel or a contoured shape? Or do we see the two divided throats just dump into the back end of an undivided big horn? Or something else?


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 Post subject: Re: A gold coloured HMV No. 16 Soundbox ?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:25 pm 
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Victor O
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:59 am
Posts: 59
I'll get one out of the loft tomorrow and photograph its mouth.


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 Post subject: Re: A gold coloured HMV No. 16 Soundbox ?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:20 pm 
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Victor IV
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:12 pm
Posts: 1560
PeterF wrote:
Ok now I have a great visualization of the "half-horn" except for what one sees when looking squarely into the mouth.

That is, do we see a division all the way to the front edge, and is that division merely a flat vertical panel or a contoured shape? Or do we see the two divided throats just dump into the back end of an undivided big horn? Or something else?


I was able to lighten the image using LunaPics -- https://www196.lunapic.com/editor/ -- a handy online tool for those of us who do not have Photoshop.

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I'm sure the one Oedipus will post tomorrow will show the details much better.

HTH,
OrthoFan


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 Post subject: Re: A gold coloured HMV No. 16 Soundbox ?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:24 pm 
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Victor IV
Edison, Columbia, Victor, Pathé...and oddball makes
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:06 pm
Posts: 1365
Got it! There seems to be a shaped divider, but not extending very far into the main horn at all.

Thanks!


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