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 Post subject: Re: Hmv xxx 12" tabletop in oak... This morning!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:31 pm 
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Victor I
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Location: St. Albans, UK
Inigo wrote:
Thanks Jamie, I'll try to find a cork like yours and give it a try... It's an elegant reversible way to improve the original design, kind of attachment. Wasn't the famous lifebelt also an attachment for the same purpose?
I will apply this truck to the Columbia no 15 soundbox of my 113 portable. There I use glue for the assembly of the joint, soundbox and back collar piece, for the original six screws cannot be installed on the wedged joint. I keep them with the machine, and it is also reversible, installing the factory red rubber plain joint.


Hi Inigo, I understand that the 'lifebelt' was an attachment of a piece of straight rubber tube used to connect the tonearm and soundbox. It's purpose was to give extra compliance to the soundbox and therefore reduce record wear. It might also help to isolate the soundbox from motor noise. It would not alter the tracking angle (unless it curves) but may have helped reduce record wear with the added compliance.

Jamie


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 Post subject: Re: Hmv xxx 12" tabletop in oak... This morning!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:53 am 
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Victor I
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Just a simple note about the lifebelt... As far as it moves the soundbox farther from the gooseneck, it adds offset: the distance between the plane of the diaphragm and the tonearm pivot. Think about it. It's equivalent to adding an angle to the soundbox at the gooseneck joint. It simply works 'slower' than your system, and occupies more space. Besides that, adding a very long lifebelt will in fact improve tracking, but it will also have other undesirable effects: too much compliance, and probable issues with the stop of the tonearm towards the central spindle.
Inigo


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 Post subject: Re: Hmv xxx 12" tabletop in oak... This morning!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:56 pm 
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Victor I
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Location: St. Albans, UK
Inigo wrote:
Just a simple note about the lifebelt... As far as it moves the soundbox farther from the gooseneck, it adds offset: the distance between the plane of the diaphragm and the tonearm pivot. Think about it. It's equivalent to adding an angle to the soundbox at the gooseneck joint. It simply works 'slower' than your system, and occupies more space. Besides that, adding a very long lifebelt will in fact improve tracking, but it will also have other undesirable effects: too much compliance, and probable issues with the stop of the tonearm towards the central spindle.


Hi Inigo, I do understand about the benefit of added offset, certainly if using a longer lifebelt. I was actually thinking of something quite short, I guess more of an adapter really as this is what I have seen. On these Victor/Gramo Co. Exhibition tonearm machines there is little or no offset at all! It makes me wonder just how long you could get away with and whether too much compliance would cause sound distortion and/or reduced volume? Someone will know. It would be interesting to experiment with lengths and, if necessary, stiffness of rubber tubing.

I have been thinking of making an interchangeable tracking/offset adapter between machines of similar poor tracking but this would be in brass to fix the soundbox exactly where I want it.

Jamie


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 Post subject: Re: Hmv xxx 12" tabletop in oak... This morning!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:08 pm 
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Victor IV
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 2:04 pm
Posts: 1601
jamiegramo wrote:
Inigo wrote:
Just a simple note about the lifebelt... As far as it moves the soundbox farther from the gooseneck, it adds offset: the distance between the plane of the diaphragm and the tonearm pivot. Think about it. It's equivalent to adding an angle to the soundbox at the gooseneck joint. It simply works 'slower' than your system, and occupies more space. Besides that, adding a very long lifebelt will in fact improve tracking, but it will also have other undesirable effects: too much compliance, and probable issues with the stop of the tonearm towards the central spindle.


Hi Inigo, I do understand about the benefit of added offset, certainly if using a longer lifebelt. I was actually thinking of something quite short, I guess more of an adapter really as this is what I have seen. On these Victor/Gramo Co. Exhibition tonearm machines there is little or no offset at all! It makes me wonder just how long you could get away with and whether too much compliance would cause sound distortion and/or reduced volume? Someone will know. It would be interesting to experiment with lengths and, if necessary, stiffness of rubber tubing.

I have been thinking of making an interchangeable tracking/offset adapter between machines of similar poor tracking but this would be in brass to fix the soundbox exactly where I want it.

Jamie


Whats the point ? surely you have at least one great machine which tracks almost perfectly to play your records ? Does anyone use a machine like this to play records regularly ? I can't believe so , if they only have this one machine what are they doing ? :cry:


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 Post subject: Re: Hmv xxx 12" tabletop in oak... This morning!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:36 pm 
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Victor IV
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Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:40 pm
Posts: 1527
Location: Holy Loch in Argyll and Bute
soundgen wrote:
jamiegramo wrote:
Inigo wrote:
Just a simple note about the lifebelt... As far as it moves the soundbox farther from the gooseneck, it adds offset: the distance between the plane of the diaphragm and the tonearm pivot. Think about it. It's equivalent to adding an angle to the soundbox at the gooseneck joint. It simply works 'slower' than your system, and occupies more space. Besides that, adding a very long lifebelt will in fact improve tracking, but it will also have other undesirable effects: too much compliance, and probable issues with the stop of the tonearm towards the central spindle.


Hi Inigo, I do understand about the benefit of added offset, certainly if using a longer lifebelt. I was actually thinking of something quite short, I guess more of an adapter really as this is what I have seen. On these Victor/Gramo Co. Exhibition tonearm machines there is little or no offset at all! It makes me wonder just how long you could get away with and whether too much compliance would cause sound distortion and/or reduced volume? Someone will know. It would be interesting to experiment with lengths and, if necessary, stiffness of rubber tubing.

I have been thinking of making an interchangeable tracking/offset adapter between machines of similar poor tracking but this would be in brass to fix the soundbox exactly where I want it.

Jamie


Whats the point ? surely you have at least one great machine which tracks almost perfectly to play your records ? Does anyone use a machine like this to play records regularly ? I can't believe so , if they only have this one machine what are they doing ? :cry:


True. I have a museum quality Style 1 hornless in its original travelling case but I never play it. Having the Expert Senior and a 202 sees to that.
I play several top quality Pathé machines though.


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 Post subject: Re: Hmv xxx 12" tabletop in oak... This morning!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:28 pm 
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Victor I
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Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:51 am
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Location: Madrid, Spain
Fellows, it's just curiosity... scientific or engineering or mechanical curiosity... Gramophones are my toys, and probably Jamie's too, and the core of all this is to experiment and see how near they actually were from much more perfect machines without knowing it... Of course these horns are not exponential and long, but they were enough to give a very good rendition with the records of that era. They only had some silly design faults that can be easily improved! Maybe these faults were caused only by arriving at the end of the budget goal, or whatever reason. It could also be an intentional trick to wear records faster... Don't forget that the real business was in the sale of thousands of records. Who knows!

And Jamie, it is of course better to make a short, angled tube, brass adaptor. It would be the ideal solution... Then you wouldn't alter anything in the machine nor in the soundbox. My hat off...
Once I made a copper tube adaptor to play vertical records on my 101, using an off-the-shelf 135 degrees copper elbow that happened to be of the precise bore needed for the tonearm end. I only had to cut the part I needed, and add a locking pin at the tonearm side, and cut a corresponding slot for engaging the hmv no4 soundbox pin at the other end. With that adaptor the soundbox rests on the record as in a Pathé machine, And you can play Pathé records. Thèse were the only vertical records in Spain, and still are many left, Spanish and French pressings mainly.
The thing with that adaptor is that it was not easy to track the groove of a Pathé sapphire record, and by then I acquired an Aeolian Vocalion which has a revolver soundbox that can play those records much better, so I quit using the 101 with the adaptor. I still keep it as a curiosity.
Inigo


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 Post subject: Re: Hmv xxx 12" tabletop in oak... This morning!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:42 pm 
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Victor I
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Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:52 am
Posts: 123
Location: St. Albans, UK
Steve wrote:
soundgen wrote:

Whats the point ? surely you have at least one great machine which tracks almost perfectly to play your records ? Does anyone use a machine like this to play records regularly ? I can't believe so , if they only have this one machine what are they doing ? :cry:


True. I have a museum quality Style 1 hornless in its original travelling case but I never play it. Having the Expert Senior and a 202 sees to that.
I play several top quality Pathé machines though.


Maybe I'm strange but I think it's quite nice to play the older machines and I like the look of them. I play the horn no.7 alot, albeit with modified tracking. A 202 would be my choice, if I had one and I wish I did!... and Pathé were more circumspect about their tracking even on the older machines.

I do have an HMV 130 but I can't get to it, I'm sure Mike will understand that problem.:)


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 Post subject: Re: Hmv xxx 12" tabletop in oak... This morning!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:03 pm 
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Victor I
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Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:52 am
Posts: 123
Location: St. Albans, UK
Inigo wrote:
Fellows, it's just curiosity... scientific or engineering or mechanical curiosity... Gramophones are my toys, and probably Jamie's too, and the core of all this is to experiment and see how near they actually were from much more perfect machines without knowing it... Of course these horns are not exponential and long, but they were enough to give a very good rendition with the records of that era. They only had some silly design faults that can be easily improved! Maybe these faults were caused only by arriving at the end of the budget goal, or whatever reason. It could also be an intentional trick to wear records faster... Don't forget that the real business was in the sale of thousands of records. Who knows!

And Jamie, it is of course better to make a short, angled tube, brass adaptor. It would be the ideal solution... Then you wouldn't alter anything in the machine nor in the soundbox. My hat off...
Once I made a copper tube adaptor to play vertical records on my 101, using an off-the-shelf 135 degrees copper elbow that happened to be of the precise bore needed for the tonearm end. I only had to cut the part I needed, and add a locking pin at the tonearm side, and cut a corresponding slot for engaging the hmv no4 soundbox pin at the other end. With that adaptor the soundbox rests on the record as in a Pathé machine, And you can play Pathé records. Thèse were the only vertical records in Spain, and still are many left, Spanish and French pressings mainly.
The thing with that adaptor is that it was not easy to track the groove of a Pathé sapphire record, and by then I acquired an Aeolian Vocalion which has a revolver soundbox that can play those records much better, so I quit using the 101 with the adaptor. I still keep it as a curiosity.


Inigo I think that we must both sound like a pair of anoraks* (as they say in Britain) I'm not sure how it translates into Spanish... But I have seen far more intense threads than our mild discussion of tracking and offset.:)

*Anorak (slang) ... "Anorak" /ˈænəræk/ is a British slang which refers to a person who has a very strong interest, perhaps obsessive, in niche subjects.

I guess this term derives from trainspotters? Folks wearing anoraks sometimes in the pouring rain, for hours and hours, recording train serial numbers as they passed.


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 Post subject: Re: Hmv xxx 12" tabletop in oak... This morning!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:21 pm 
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Victor I
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Keep'em well oiled
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:51 am
Posts: 172
Location: Madrid, Spain
Yes we are... at times! When we discuss these technical matters. The forum has other notables in this area... Just read any of the long and intense discussions about EMG/Expert machines, horns, tonearms, soundboxes, conduits and the like... I've read them all! Very interesting, although I haven't one of those gramophones, and probably never will have any!!! It's just for fun!
And what about the restoration of valve amps, capacitors and the like, of Electrolas...? And the long threads about infinite details of Garrard motors?
We're not rara avis in a forum full of people collecting music playing machines almost 100 years old, in the era of digital music! The music that a pendrive or even an electronic card smaller than a mail stamp can store, in our physical storage devices (78s made of stone powder) weighs tons and occupies cubic metres of space!!
Isn't all this only just for fun? Where's the problem? :D :D
Inigo


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 Post subject: Re: Hmv xxx 12" tabletop in oak... This morning!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:52 am 
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Victor Jr
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:59 am
Posts: 34
Well, as we're on the subject of anoraks, let me point out that this is not a 58, its a Model 3 (L.C.O.), as on page 162 of His Master's Gramophone. The 58 was the same thing renamed in July 1922, and the last oak ones in the UK were sold in November of that year. BUT 58s have needle bowls, which this one does not. Also, it is a nice golden oak colour, which at least in the UK gave way to 'Antique' (dark) oak around 1918. This one has the earlier style of winder, and also a cast iron cowl at the back of the tone-arm. Most late ones have a nickel-plated steel cowl, while the very early ones (illus. 5.10 in the book, from a 1913 catalogue) have no cowl at all.


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