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 Post subject: Re: Hmv xxx 12" tabletop in oak... This morning!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:52 am 
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Victor II
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Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:51 am
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Location: Madrid, Spain
Speaking of anoraks....

I've just calculated the ratio of music storage capacity between 78s and digital music stored in memory cards. Amazing!

78s: an hour of music in this format weighs 2200 grams and occupies 2028 cc in our shelves, while 1 single cc of a 16Gb card holds 4500 hours of music in mp4 format, and weighs something like 1.2 grams. A simple division gives a ratio of one single 16Gb card containing the music of some 2,700 78s! This is a weight of 600 kg of records concentrated in 0.1 grams, a ratio of 1:8,250,000 in weight, and a ratio of similar order in occupied space. The music in my 78s shelves could be today concentrated in a couple of 16Gb cards...
Inigo


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 Post subject: Re: Hmv xxx 12" tabletop in oak... This morning!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:55 am 
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Victor IV
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Location: Holy Loch in Argyll and Bute
Not all 58s have needle bowls. My 58 had a cast iron cowl.


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 Post subject: Re: Hmv xxx 12" tabletop in oak... This morning!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:01 am 
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VTLA
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Inigo wrote:
Speaking of anoraks....

I've just calculated the ratio of music storage capacity between 78s and digital music stored in memory cards. Amazing!

78s: an hour of music in this format weighs 2200 grams and occupies 2028 cc in our shelves, while 1 single cc of a 16Gb card holds 4500 hours of music in mp4 format, and weighs something like 1.2 grams. A simple division gives a ratio of one single 16Gb card containing the music of some 2,700 78s! This is a weight of 600 kg of records concentrated in 0.1 grams, a ratio of 1:8,250,000 in weight, and a ratio of similar order in occupied space. The music in my 78s shelves could be today concentrated in a couple of 16Gb cards...


That reminds me of when I posted pictures of my first restored machine on Facebook, a simple Edison Diamond Disc BC-34. While most comments were favorable, one of my colleagues posted the smart-@$$ comment "how many MP3s can it store?". I gave him an answer very similar to what you just posted: "Since a 16GB SD card can store thousands of MP3s and I can fit thousands of these SD cards into the cabinet, I guess it can store a nearly unlimited number of MP3s." Never got another comment from him. :mrgreen:

Andreas


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 Post subject: Re: Hmv xxx 12" tabletop in oak... This morning!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:46 pm 
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Victor II
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Keep'em well oiled
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:51 am
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Location: Madrid, Spain
Thanks for the info, dears. Still the differences and ambiguities could be due to the French edition... We're those imported from the uk and labelled in France, or they were completely assembled in France? That's a point...
Last Tuesday I started with the overhaul. I dissasembled the tonearm, brake and speed control, and removed the motor. I left the wood case and horn, and studied it closely, cause I didn't know how to remove the horn from the case. The horn is floating inside, attached by its heavy cast iron back to the heavy cast iron tonearm lower cowl by four bolts. Those go through holes at the back panel of the case, which in turn has an opening for the sound conduit. When assembled, the horn fits into the case without touching it except by this back connection.
The horn is pretty solid, and the cast iron conduit is attached by screws to a pretty well made oak flare with three slats.
The case has a rectangular metal frame installed inside, vertically, located at ¾ of the case length towards the front, and the horn passes through it without touching it. This must be for stiffening the case.
The motorboard is hinged at the back of the case, and secured by two screws on top.
Finally I discovered that the upper frieze of the case is removable, attached to the lateral and back panels by several wood screws. When removing it, the case is left open at the upper part and the horn can be lifted and extracted from the front, passing through the metal frame.
All is a good solid construction, and seems to be real oak wood, no veneering. The condition is immaculate, the wood is sane and clean, and even the screws are all nicely preserved, with no trace of dirt nor rust. Nice machine.
I've come to think if the machine was in a music shop or something until recently, as it came with a 27cm Perfectaphone record that carries a dealer sticker, the very same of the metal badge on the motorboard. Besides that, it's condition is very good.
The motor is a double spring model, double vertical single spring barrel, and has the old style frame and the sloped governor. The governor worm, though, has the latest finer thread, instead of the earlier gross thread. The weights are almost spherical, no flat inner surfaces. It must be slightly misadjusted, for a vibration is felt when running the motor on your hand. I'll try first the trick that once worked... to loosen the governor springs, then run for an instant, then tighten the screws again, and test if the vibration disappears. If not, a new set of paired springs must be installed.
There is also some thumping in the main springs, and maybe a little oil is enough. I tend not to touch things that work, for later motors I cleaned completely run noisier than before, after removing the old grease... Besides that, I still have not found a good grease for mainsprings. I've tried Molykote, but doesn't work. Lithium grease alone, also a failure. Vaseline mixed with graphite powder didn't either work. Finally I tried a mixture of lithium grease and graphite powder, and this seems to work on portables and small motors, but the big four spring motor no.34 continues thumping from time to time... The only motor I never touched was the Aeolian Vocalion, and this never has had a problem in 20 years....
Some photos of the no.3/58 first disassembling...
Attachment:
File comment: All parts dissasembled
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File comment: Case with horn inside and removal of upper frieze
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File comment: The motorboard disengaged, upside down
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File comment: Assembly number 12 boldly stamped on motorboard
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File comment: A dead inhabitant... Together with two dozen steel needles (removed)
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File comment: The empty case and the metal reinforcing frame
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File comment: Corresponding no. 12 also stamped at the lower inner part of the case mouldings
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File comment: The labels at the bottom of the case
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File comment: The horn
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File comment: Other numbers and circled capital N on the horn
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File comment: Penciled number and signature on the horn
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The machine is full of numbers which are all different, except for the two matched '12's
Inigo


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 Post subject: Re: Hmv xxx 12" tabletop in oak... This morning!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 4:33 pm 
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Victor II
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Keep'em well oiled
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:51 am
Posts: 384
Location: Madrid, Spain
Today I've cleaned all the nickeled parts and their screws with magic cotton, and also the black painted cowl and the tonearm bracket with only a cloth and a bit of alcohol. I will later wax then for better shine. The nickel is a bit erased on the tonearm, but it has a certain deep golden shine... It's this nickel or Chrome? The other has a bluish quality, but mine goes towards a certain light golden colour.
I've also dissasembled the motor governor and spindle, cleaned them from old grease, and replaced the governor springs. The reason for that vibration was one of the springs, much thicker than the other two. It was made from soft steel, much less springy than the others, as if it wasn't tempered. Fortunately I had three new paired springs of the same type, provided by Ken Priestley last year.
With only this fast cure, the motor now runs smooth and strong. I've stopped here, but still I have to provide a new felt for the turntable brake, new rubber or felt gaskets for isolating the motor, new turntable felt, overhaul the soundbox, and install felt gaskets between the horn and case, and also at the back tonearm cowl, to make the sound conduit as airtight as possible. Formerly there must have been some kind of gasket, for a black substance us been left at the internal case joint of the horn. It could be some kind of gummy sealant, or a very thin felt gasket... I must investigate these rests to see what is this...
I must also clean the case a bit, maybe with linseed oil, and after dried, finish with a bit of wax. I don't know what is the case finish, it could be lacquer, but I think a bit of cleaning with the linseed oil will do no harm. Am i wrong? Must i add only the wax?
Still a lot of work...
Inigo


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 Post subject: Re: Hmv xxx 12" tabletop in oak... This morning!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:10 am 
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Victor III
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 6:18 am
Posts: 957
Inigo wrote:
The nickel is a bit erased on the tonearm, but it has a certain deep golden shine... It's this nickel or Chrome? The other has a bluish quality, but mine goes towards a certain light golden colour.


The golden tone is probably due to the nickel plating disappearance, exposing the brass under it. Evidently the more you polish the more the golden tone will prevail.


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 Post subject: Re: Hmv xxx 12" tabletop in oak... This morning!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:25 am 
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Victor O
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:59 am
Posts: 50
The plating is nickel, not chrome, which did not come into use until about 1930.
I would not advise using linseed oil on the woodwork; the original finish is probably shellac based, but whatever it is, the oil might seep through where there are cracks in, or around joints, and cause localised darkening of the wood. Wax should be fine on its own.

Interesting that the tone-arm 'cowl' is cast iron. Steve told us that his Model 58 had a cast iron cowl, but no needle bowls. As the decision to fit needle bowls to the Model 3 was made in April 1922 (but not necessarily to existing stock), and an oak 58 would have left the factory between July and November 1922, this suggests that his 58 was an old stock Model 3 re-numbered in or after July. Most HMV internal horn machines at this time had steel cowls, and I think that the cast iron ones are found only on some of the larger 'hornless' models (with 12-inch turntables).
I had two Zonophone Model 2s, which were current from 1919 to October 1921, a short catalogue life. One had a steel cowl, the other was cast iron, and the bore at the base of the tone arm with an iron cowl was smaller than with a steel cowl. This all makes it very difficult top determine when (and why) cast iron cowls were used. Perhaps it was a matter of using up obsolete tone-arms that needed a non-standard cowl (or vice versa). I would love to hear from anyone with a Model 3, model 58 or Zonophone 2 (L.W.O) with a date on its label underneath, and details of its cowl.

Interesting to see that cast iron frame inside the case. I was not aware of this feature (it is several decades since I owned a Model 3 of this type).


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 Post subject: Re: Hmv xxx 12" tabletop in oak... This morning!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:17 pm 
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Victor O
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:59 am
Posts: 50
I have found an answer to my own question: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -home.html
This shows a group of Tank Corps officers listening to a Model 3 gramophone in the Ypres Salient in September 1917. It has a cast iron cowl. The photo, apparently,is in the Imperial War Museum. Catalogues of 1920 and later show the Model 3 with a steel cowl. They also show the speed control in the front right hand corner, rather than the left, as on earlier versions (it appears to have been moved to the right by 1917).


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 Post subject: Hmv style III 12" tabletop in oak. PROGRES UPDATE
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:09 pm 
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Victor II
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Location: Madrid, Spain
I finally cleaned a bit the case and motorboard, rubbing a little cooked linseed oil, let it 10 minutes, then wiped off. After dried I applied natural colour wax and polished. I also waxed the black painted tonearm support and lower cowl, and they came up clean and shiny. I assembled the case, horn and tonearm. I inserted felt gaskets between the horn and the case, and also at the back cowl, to improve airtightness in the sound conduit. I cut the felt gaskets by first gluing felt squares to the metal parts, then carefully cutting out the sound windows and the external contours, so the felt can hardly be seen under the cowl.
Attachment:
File comment: See the thin felt gasket inserted at the cowl joint with the case.
WhatsApp Image 2019-07-04 at 20.40.47.jpeg
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I adjusted carefully the position of the horn so it doesn't touch the case not the metal frame except at the back joint. The right side went dangerously near the metal frame, do I also inserted two small pieces of thick felt between the bottom of the horn and the metal frame. So now the horn touches the frame, but through these thick felt dampers.
When assembling the tonearm on its bed, I noticed that the tonearm rests on the central pivot, but I'm not sure how well sealed is the joint at the tonearm base. It seems not to touch the perimeter. I added thick grease to this joint, but I'd like to know if any of you with a Victrola IV or Vi, which are similar, can explain how the back joint is air-sealed. I suspect that this is a weak point for air leaks... I'm tempted to investigate of a thin gasket ring at the tonearm base works. If it works, it will cause some drag the tonearm movement, though...
Attachment:
File comment: The joint at the base of the tonearm, under suspicion of air leaks...
WhatsApp Image 2019-07-04 at 20.41.06.jpeg
WhatsApp Image 2019-07-04 at 20.41.06.jpeg [ 130.96 KiB | Viewed 162 times ]


I've also started the exhibition soundbox, but I'm a bit frightened... Disassembly of the needlebar was difficult, for screws and nuts were there frozen... No way to remove them. I've tried spraying a petrol based unfreezing liquid, and finally I got them out.
The soundbox plate is a bit rusty, and has lost the white lettering and part of the black base paint, which is becoming rough and missing at some areas.
What is better? Must I scrub the black paint out and repaint? What kind of black painting must be used?
The rubber back is, as the diaphragm gaskets, completely ossified. I have to get new joints and back rubber.
The needlebar is non triangular cut, so I only can use round shank needles.
Still the two screws attaching the steel springs the needlebar are stuck fiercely. I cannot move them. What do you suggest? It's it better to let them stay? I really don't need to remove them...
I'm thinking about buying another exhibition, and use one of them for certain experiments (loosening the diaphragm gaskets, loosening the very tight balance springs...)

I've attached herein some photos of the machine after cleaning and reassembling.
Attachment:
File comment: The machine reassembled, using a fake HMV reproducer for test purposes. The original Exhibition is in the workshop.
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Attachment:
File comment: The other side
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Attachment:
File comment: View from above
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Attachment:
File comment: From the front
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Attachment:
File comment: I've reinstalled the motor with only regreasing and governor adjustments. New rubber washers between the plate and the motorboard.
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WhatsApp Image 2019-07-04 at 20.22.01(2).jpeg [ 121.73 KiB | Viewed 162 times ]

When reassembling the Exhibition, as the springs were very hard, I've interspeded two tiny thick natural rubber washers between them and the screw heads. THis has made the needlebar much more compliant than with the original springs alone. Let's see laer how it works...
Attachment:
File comment: Soundbox reassembled. THe back plate is being cleaned. Notice the tiny thick rubber washers added between the springs and the screw heads.
WhatsApp Image 2019-07-04 at 20.22.01(1).jpeg
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Attachment:
File comment: Notice the two rubber washers.
WhatsApp Image 2019-07-04 at 20.22.01.jpeg
WhatsApp Image 2019-07-04 at 20.22.01.jpeg [ 120.96 KiB | Viewed 162 times ]
Inigo


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 Post subject: Re: HMV tabletop style III - More progress, just for fun!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:50 pm 
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Victor II
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As the machine is ready, and I was impatient to play it, I just could not wait for the new rubber back isolator, neither for the new glass diaphragm, nor involving in the process of chemical blackening of the back plate and painting letters in white (i. e., the proper restoration) and decided to play a bit with the machine, and I will come back later to finish a good restoration.
The blackening with water enamel didn't work, so I cleaned and polished the bronze back to original metal colour (almost copper) and just for fun I marked the lettering with a fine point black marker. Then I reassembled the soundbox, and glued at the back a suitable WC rubber joint that can act as a temporary isolator to use the soundbox on the machine. I was simply too impatient! :oops: This is my very first Exhibition soundbox in 41 years of collecting!
Here is the funny result. I want to express my apologies to all colleagues that may feel offended by my profane restoration... :D
Attachment:
File comment: The natural copper colour backplate installed.
IMG_20190705_161235.jpg
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Attachment:
File comment: Another view of the Exhibition Profane
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Attachment:
File comment: The new horrendous ultra-compliant rubber isolator, cut away from an off-the-shelf WC rubber joint
IMG_20190705_161421.jpg
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In these photos you may notice a gap between the front ring and the back plate, where a suitable rubber band has been installed to seal the gap and provide a rubber front against which the screws can be compressed, relaxing the pressure on the diaphragm and thickening the air chamber behind it. A favourite experiment of mine...
Actually, in front of the mica glass there's a thin rubber gasket, and behind the glass the gasket is thicker and softer.
Attachment:
File comment: Notice the gap filled with a rubber band. Heretic!
IMG_20190705_161452.jpg
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Attachment:
File comment: Another heretic feature: the inclusion of thick soft rubber washers for needlebar compliance enhancement.
IMG_20190705_161354.jpg
IMG_20190705_161354.jpg [ 1.51 MiB | Viewed 156 times ]
Inigo


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