How can auction houses auction out crapophones?

Discussions on Talking Machines of British or European Manufacture
User avatar
nostalgia
Victor IV
Posts: 1397
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:58 am
Personal Text: Keep winding up
Location: My gramophone repair room

How can auction houses auction out crapophones?

Post by nostalgia »

This is beyond my understanding, and even shocking to see. How can a well established UK auction house, selling antiques and collectables, that also have been in business since 1923, auction out an obvious crapophone, and even name it a HMV gramophone? Is this not plain fraud? I will not post the link out yet before I get some response from UK members, who know more about this than myself. The gramophone in question is a typical octagonal India/China crapophone that all of us in here despise. Don't auction houses have a responsibility to check and verify what they are auctioning out?

User avatar
jamiegramo
Victor III
Posts: 624
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:52 am
Location: St. Albans, UK

Re: How can auction houses auction out crapophones?

Post by jamiegramo »

I have seen this before and it's often just ignorance which is rather shocking as crapophones are so common and they should know better. If you inform the auction house of the mistake they should correct it or withdraw the lot.

Jamie

User avatar
Steve
Victor VI
Posts: 3125
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:40 pm
Location: London, Paris, Amsterdam, Berlin, New York, Evesham

Re: How can auction houses auction out crapophones?

Post by Steve »

I don't find this as shocking as auctioneers estimating original HMV wooden horn gramophones between 200 to 300 pounds, or an EMG at the same level.

The truth is the antique trade in general has ZERO interest in gramophones. With the disinterest comes apathy and ignorance of the subject. MOST auctioneers are lazy. I won't get on to dealers for the moment but a lot of criticism of auctioneers can be equally applied to some dealers.

User avatar
nostalgia
Victor IV
Posts: 1397
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:58 am
Personal Text: Keep winding up
Location: My gramophone repair room

Re: How can auction houses auction out crapophones?

Post by nostalgia »

..as long as they don't list these items, knowing it is not a real HMV. They should know better after almost 100 years in business. I did not like the saleroom auction site much, only a small photo of each item, this smells fishy to me...

soundgen
Victor V
Posts: 2996
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 2:04 pm
Contact:

Re: How can auction houses auction out crapophones?

Post by soundgen »

nostalgia wrote:..as long as they don't list these items, knowing it is not a real HMV. They should know better after almost 100 years in business. I did not like the saleroom auction site much, only a small photo of each item, this smells fishy to me...
Post the link !

User avatar
nostalgia
Victor IV
Posts: 1397
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:58 am
Personal Text: Keep winding up
Location: My gramophone repair room

Re: How can auction houses auction out crapophones?

Post by nostalgia »

https://www.the-saleroom.com/it-it/auct ... 77011de426

I have already emailed Featonby's.,,,whoever else that "find the link" may of course also do so...

User avatar
jamiegramo
Victor III
Posts: 624
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:52 am
Location: St. Albans, UK

Re: How can auction houses auction out crapophones?

Post by jamiegramo »

Well at least it's not as bad as the machine currently on eBay being sold as genuine 1920s and original etc...

http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... 16&t=40977

User avatar
nostalgia
Victor IV
Posts: 1397
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:58 am
Personal Text: Keep winding up
Location: My gramophone repair room

Re: How can auction houses auction out crapophones?

Post by nostalgia »

I understand your opinion "jamiegramo", but myself I find it even more disturbing when supposed professionals, who work daily in antiques, list obvious fake items for sale on an online antique auction, and even name the item as HMV. A layman and private person can live for years with a crapophone, believing he had a real HMV all the time, and when trying to sell it will still believe he has the real deal, and list it as a genuine HMV on Ebay. Two weeks ago I talked to a seller who believed he had a good horn gramophone for 10-15 years, but when I put the photos up here, the board members helped me sort out that it was a frankenphone. The seller was shocked when he heard the reality of his gramophone, because he had all the time believed he had an antique gramophone.
What is really annoying though, is how Indian companies can keep on manufacturing these fake HMVs and even list them as HMV on Ebay, without Ebay taking any action to stop them and remove their listings.

CarlosV
Victor IV
Posts: 1835
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 6:18 am
Location: Luxembourg

Re: How can auction houses auction out crapophones?

Post by CarlosV »

In my understanding HMV lost its copyrights almost everywhere, including India, therefore technically these Indian HMVs are not frauds nor the auction house is doing anything unlawful - the ad in the link does not claim it is a vintage machine. In a similar case, the Victor brand was revived and its label stuck to some modern machines.

Forgeries have been bought and sold for millenia, from postage stamps to paintings, with many reputable dealers and auction houses being caught in the act every now and then, so it is up to the buyer to behave prudently. In the particular field of talking machines, as Steve says, gramophones do not attract any attention from a broader market, which leaves the few experts in the field within the dwindling collector community, and none outside it.

User avatar
nostalgia
Victor IV
Posts: 1397
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:58 am
Personal Text: Keep winding up
Location: My gramophone repair room

Re: How can auction houses auction out crapophones?

Post by nostalgia »

Thanks for all the postings on this issue, it is appreciated, a lot. I now received an email from Featonby's Auctioneers & Valuers. They thanked me for emailing them, and said they would alter the lot with this gramophone. It will be interesting to see if it is totally removed. Anyway good to see that they responded and took it seriously, my hat off to them if they remove the listing, as I hope they do.

Post Reply