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 Post subject: Needing help again with identifying a horn gramophone
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:39 pm 
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Victor II
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Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:58 am
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Location: Anywhere the Wind blows
Does anyone recognize this horn gramophone. It is up for sale for 150 euro,
and this time only 30 minutes drive away from me. Skip or not skip, that is the question...
I have no more photos right now, but have asked for more..if the gramophone is not already sold...time is a factor, of course..as usual.
Update: Two more photos added, soundbox which is broken, and elbow.


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Last edited by nostalgia on Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Needing help again with identifying a horn gramophone
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:46 pm 
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Victor IV
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 2:04 pm
Posts: 1727
very interesting , tone arm rotates to allow playing of hill and dale records


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 Post subject: Re: Needing help again with identifying a horn gramophone
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:54 pm 
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Victor II
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Location: Anywhere the Wind blows
Soundgen/Everyone else: Would you have bought it? I am in touch with the seller
I can see now it has some major problems..missing woodwork at a corner.
I may drop it...if not one of you guys tell me it is a must buy;)
Update: I have an appointment to look at the gramophone tomorrow afternoon.
30 minute drive to have a look at a horn gramophone was not a difficult decision.
The seller say he is open to offers.
New update: I look more closely at the photos, reading the paper note. Does it say Union 60..?, and if so....is this possibly another Beka, with Union motor? I know extremely little about this, but I remember a recent post, a few weeks back where I purchased a gramophone that turned out to be a Beka, with a rare Union motor. It has a very similar decal to the decal on the Beka I already have in possession...


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 Post subject: Re: Needing help again with identifying a horn gramophone
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:25 am 
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Victor V
His epigrams are all his own, the man's an epigramophone!
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:21 pm
Posts: 2854
Location: The Somerset Levels, UK.
The general appearance is typical of Beka and several other Swiss/German makes, but the tonearm is unfamiliar.
Here are the relevant pages from the 1911/12 Beka catalogue :


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 Post subject: Re: Needing help again with identifying a horn gramophone
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:56 am 
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Victor II
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Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:58 am
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Location: Anywhere the Wind blows
Thank you again, "epigramophone":)))
I yesterday evening googled A LOT, trying to find a Beka catalogue, or documents, but was unable to find it.
And here you post what I need:) Thanks a LOT! I will now drive to have a look at the gramophone, the seller is very friendly,
and also said he is open to offers. If I get it cheaply, it will probably be hard to say "No", after all.
I dont know much about motors yet, but will try to find out if it is a Union motor inside. If I buy it, I will
of course post pics of the motor so everyone who have interest can see and learn.
-Nostalgia-


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 Post subject: Re: Needing help again with identifying a horn gramophone
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:42 am 
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Victor II
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I drove out to have a look at the gramophone as decided. I was not able to see the motor at the sellers house, since there was no lid to open on top, but since I got a very good price, lowered from 150 to 50 Euro, I could not resist it. It also has a long background story, being entertaining guests in public cottage in high mountains for more than 50 years, before it some/many years back where put on top of a fireplace. I have this morning carefully removed the bottom wooden cover, and I upload some photos of the motor. If someone is able to identify it from the photos,it could of course be very interesting reading. If the photos are not good enough, I will disassemble it from the wood case, and remove to motor to take more photos. It is a tiny little "baby", but has it's charm. The decal is good, and even if some woodwork is missing in the corner, they are small removable parts that easily can be made new and fitted to the gramophone, since I already have two wooden corner pieces that are not broken. As I have earlier been taught on the forum, I will use an acid anti rust solution to stop the rust on the horn ( is a vinegar solution okay to use?), and then finally add a wax, without trying to re paint the horn. The woodwork will undergo a careful treatment with micro crystaline wax/polish, and the motor..that runs smoothly, will be oiled. And here comes one question: Do you always dissassemble and grease the spring when getting hold of a gramophone of this age and you can hear no rough sounds from the spring, or do you just oil the motor in general?
There are no words on any part of the soundbox, and the tonearm does also not match the Beka catalogue pages as we already know. The soundbox is more or less destroyed, since the metal parts are warped and fragmented, but I am not sure if I should leave it as it is, or look for a Swizz/German soundbox to make the gramophone able to play records. I guess that is maybe a matter of taste...
Update: The number 22667 that is written on the paper label, is attached to the bottom of the gramophone, and is original. The same number 22667 is also stamped into the wood on top of the grammophone. From reading the language on this label, the language is clearly German, but since German also is used in Switzerland, it can also be Swizz made, as also earlier has been suggested. I have however not yet been able to find the Union name written inside the motor, even if Union is written on the paper label. The name of the Werk is also hard to read, at least it is not something I recognize from my limited knowledge about Grammophon(e) Werke in Germany and Switzerland.


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 Post subject: Re: Needing help again with identifying a horn gramophone
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:57 pm 
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Victor II
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:51 am
Posts: 430
At that price I would buy one everyday. Congratulations!

The motor looks very Parlophone.


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 Post subject: Re: Needing help again with identifying a horn gramophone
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:46 pm 
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Victor III
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:12 pm
Posts: 835
I mean in no way to distract from this machine, so my remarks are here entered in the spirit of a friendly inquiry. The inside of the case seems too clean to me, and the wood too bright. I know the lid has help protected the inside from oxidation by air, but still even the nail heads are rather bright and have not reacted with the wood in any way, or vice versa, the wood with the nail. I don't think I've ever seen a case so clean inside, but of course, I have not seen the inside of every machine.


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 Post subject: Re: Needing help again with identifying a horn gramophone
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:46 am 
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Victor V
His epigrams are all his own, the man's an epigramophone!
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:21 pm
Posts: 2854
Location: The Somerset Levels, UK.
From the same Beka catalogue as the tonearm pages which I posted earlier, the single spring motor pictured below looks similar to yours. Beka supplied components to other manufacturers, so their presence does not necessarily mean that you have a Beka gramophone.

As to the question of whether to re-grease the spring, the problem of bumps and bangs mainly affects HMV motors. They used graphited grease which hardens into lumps, and trouble arises when these lumps become lodged between the coils of the spring. Garrard motors, used by many British gramophone manufacturers, are seldom troubled in this way.


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 Post subject: Re: Needing help again with identifying a horn gramophone
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:15 pm 
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Victor II
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Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:58 am
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Location: Anywhere the Wind blows
Thank you all for all comments, congrats and help. I understand, of course, that it is very difficult to find the name of the manufacturer, also when manufacturers supplied motors for other brand names. And,, “jboger”,.. your comments are all welcome, all comments are welcomed by me, since we all learn by trying and failing, and the only way to find the truth, is of course to dig deep. Myself I was also astonished to see the bright color of the wood, and everything under the lid was looking like it never had been touched. When removing the lid I felt it really never had been removed, it was very tight. I also know for certain that the gramophone has been owned by the same family since it was new, it was actually the sellers wife who had inherited the gramophone from her mother. This woman had been a keeper of a mountain resort/public guest house all her life, and the gramophone had been entertaining the guests back in the “good old days”, before it was put on top on the fireplace in later years. Regarding the color of the wood, the only explanation that comes to my mind is the thin air, and purity of air in the mountains. The public guest house is by the way situated at around 1000 meter above sea level when I checked right now.
"Epigramophone", thank you for providing the photos of Bekla motors, it is very much appreciated. I take your answer regarding the need to grease the spring as a "No", I do not need to open the spring container, to renew the grease the spring on this gramophone, or other gramophones,,apart from HMV. Yes, I already read about the graphite grease problem with HMV, and also for sure know it from my own HMV gramophones. Yes, I am preparing myself mentally to open my first HMV spring container, I now have the grease to use, and have no excuses to postpone it more really.


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