Using Round Needles in Triangular Soundbox Chuck

[VintageSoundz]

Hello folks.

I've recently acquired a "Pianini" soundbox which has a (large) triangular needle fitting. The thumbscrew provides no grip when using ordinary round steel needles (particularly the thinner soft tones which I want to use as the box produces a very loud response).
There is so much space that the needle gets completely lost and cannot "seat" directly opposite the screw to obtain maximum grip. (The triangle is such that there isn't even one of it's points directly opposite which would at least give the screw a fighting chance to hold the needle securely). I think I remember seeing a short adaptor a long time ago now, with a triangular insert, converting to a conventional round fitting (with it's own thumbscrew) or did I imagine such a thing?
Presumably collar needles were originally manufactured to solve this problem, but no one makes these now. Even so, the collar would not allow needle flex so presumably were only loud tone anyway. As most of my records are "well played" I don't use fibre/wooden items as they would tear up within about thirty seconds on worn surfaces.
Strangely, I also have the other "Pianini" variation, the Beltona Peredulce with aluminium diaphragm which in every other way is identical except that it has a normal
round fitting.

Does this "conversion" gadget exist.

Any suggestions or observations would be appreciated.

Dave.

[emgcr]

Inserted needle holders reduce the signal significantly and are not to be recommended---even if you could find one. Much easier and better to slightly reduce the diameter at the inner end of the thumb screw thread so that the tip contacts the needle and not the two walls of the triangular chuck. If your thumb screw is too short, longer ones are available but buy a selection of thread sizes which can vary quite a lot.

Good luck and hope this helps.

[VintageSoundz]

Thank You,

The thumbscrew is perfectly OK in that it does not contact the chuck walls, going in quite sufficiently and initially "pinning" the needle. Due to the "flat" surface the needle however simply works loose by the vibrations.
As I said, if there was a triangle point directly opposite the needle, this would act as a "seat" for the smaller diameter needles (medium and loud tone pose no problem).
This soundbox produces a healthy loud response on "medium" anyway, hence my wanting to use soft or extra soft. so some signal reduction would certainly be welcome.

[Phono48]

I had the same problem with some of the HMV No.5 soundboxes, especially when using "extra soft" tone needles. I solved it by filing the end of the thumbscrew to a point.

[epigramophone]

I know of no adapter specifically designed to fit a triangular needle chuck, but Edison Bell marketed the "Sympathetic Chromic" adapter and needles, which they claimed would control the volume of a gramophone. These devices turn up on eBay from time to time, but you need to check that they are complete. My tin is still sealed, so I have never put Edison Bell's claim to the test.

[Marco Gilardetti]

... which they claimed would control the volume of a gramophone.

Yes, and make meatballs out of the tracking angle at the same time...

[VintageSoundz]

Thanks both.

I've now actually located an EB "Sympathetic" grip on e-bay and am waiting for this, so will check it out shortly. Marco, I'll report on any tracking angle problems when I've set it up.

Regards.

Dave.

[VintageSoundz]

Right, I now have the EB (Sypathetic) grip.
It is quite small and thus fiddly, taking only "extra soft" tone needles (the same diameter as the original EB Chromic). Tone quality is soft as expected and due to it's shape, the "collar" keeps it secure in the chuck. Effectively the needlebar is extended in rigid length but below the pivot. Surface noise is reduced.
When fitted to the "Pianina" using a standard thickness 20s shellac, I have a ½ inch needle overhang on the spindle at 60 degrees.
Increasing this to 5/8ths reduces needle angle to a more preferred 58 degrees.
(Graham's comments on his EMG page state that an overhang of ½ inch or slightly more is preferable to centre of spindle location). These figures are thus within acceptable parameters.
This is however with a rigid tone arm pivoted beneath the horn.
The same can not be said however for goose/swan neck applications unless you have a quality machine where the tone arm can be raised. Otherwise, on "flip over" when viewed from front of machine, the startling soundbox "lean" of "crapophone" scenario occurs. Without such adjustment, there is no way any alternative sized soundbox can be used correctly anyway, even without the additional grip.
For some strange reason most machines were thus poorly designed from the outset meaning that there are probably many perfectly good "oversize" soundboxes sitting around in drawers because of this lack of such a basic adjustment.

So to summarise.

Does the job of staying put securely, providing soft tone is acceptable. Reduces surface noise. Fiddly to use (good eyesight needed!). If you have a goose/swan neck and no tone arm vertical adjustment - forget it.

I hope this thread may help any others who are suffering from "needle trauma" !!

[emgcr]

Many thanks Dave and very helpful to add to general information for everyone. A few photos might help make the situation even clearer ?

[VintageSoundz]

Graham.

I hope these help, neither myself or my camera are very good at photography !