"Trade Mark" on UK eBay

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Raphael
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Re: "Trade Mark" on UK eBay

Post by Raphael »

If a dealer bought this (or anything else) in anticipation of a profit, why would this translate into "greed"? Are dealers supposed to be investing their time and money as a public service?

Alternatively, if the sole reason for a private person selling would be dissatisfaction, then there wouldn't be much left for buyers, after eliminating greedy dealers and defective goods.


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Steve
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Re: "Trade Mark" on UK eBay

Post by Steve »

Not all dealers are greedy. In fact I personally know an antique furniture dealer who regularly gets very nice pieces in that I look at and think to myself how cheap they are. I'm often tempted to point out to him how much I've seen the very same pieces for elsewhere. Needless to say, he sells everything very quickly!

No, the point I was bluntly making is that unlike in sunny Miami, where great things are regularly offered in tip top condition, in the UK the situation couldn't be more different. In such a way, when a highly coveted machine appears collectors usually have to pay top money to secure anything at auction. There are always dealers who will pay X + Y, where X is a high retail price and Y is their expected profit. In other words, the machine will end up very highly priced just so they can have it on eBay as opposed to anyone else, anticipating that there will usually be someone out there who desperately wants it badly enough that they'll cough up the money.

I never understood this. Why not sell second-hand cars instead if all you're doing is buying to sell? Surely there is a bigger market to make money in than this?

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Raphael
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Re: "Trade Mark" on UK eBay

Post by Raphael »

Well, here in sunny Miami, as elsewhere in much of the dealer world, we are both collectors and traders. My house is decorated from top to bottom with antique music boxes, phonographs, clocks, etc. We live and breathe this stuff. It's unfortunate that you take such a dim view of dealers and capitalism, it must limit your enjoyment of the hobby, as we all have something in common to share.
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Re: "Trade Mark" on UK eBay

Post by Jerry B. »

I'm curious, how can a dealer spend "high retail" for anything and then add profit? After re-reading the prior post, I suppose retail in one market is not retail in another area. For example, a blue #10 Cygnet may have a retail value in Australia for a certain amount and have an increased market value in the States where colored Cygnets were not originally available. Jerry

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Steve
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Re: "Trade Mark" on UK eBay

Post by Steve »

I'm curious, how can a dealer spend "high retail" for anything and then add profit?
I think you probably answered your own question there, Jerry! Of course, there ARE variations in "price" (by definition what a seller asks for an item) from region to region, country to country, but there are also huge variations in price expectations. That is something which is much much harder to pin down. An example I can give without naming any individuals, goes back about 10 years ago. I was in a meeting with, let's just say a lot of like-minded collectors, and I had with me a very early G & T Monarch with floating horn / travelling arm. It was the G & T equivalent of the Victor MS. Another collector asked me how much it had cost me and where I "found it". When I told him what I'd paid, he was visibly shocked. He quickly changed the subject and spent the rest of the day looking very puzzled. I occasionally caught him glancing at the machine when I wasn't looking. I told him that finding machines of this caliber wasn't an option for someone like me with my particular lifestyle and considering where I live. Machines like this do not turn up at my local car boot sale (garage sale) or flea markets.

I later queried with someone else what they expected to pay for a machine like this and they shocked me with their price indication which was a much lower price point, presumably what the earlier gentleman must have been thinking? However, when I asked these same people if they had ever seen or found another example themselves they looked completely baffled and shook their heads in astonishment. This was the first example either of them had ever seen in person.

My confusion with this little play was based on the question of why anyone believes something is worth a certain value, if they have no evidence to back it up. If you've never seen a particular machine available for sale how would you know what it is worth? My conclusion was that these people had a gut feeling what THEY might pay for the item IF the same item came up for sale privately or through another collector.

The machine I owned had been purchased by me at public auction and sold for more or less the same exact price that every similar example had sold for during the previous 10 years or so at specialist public auctions. I also concluded that these people were not minded to buy at auction for fear of "paying too much". This might realistically only mean "paying the right / retail price". Bargain hunter collectors are different from specific machine collectors. Maybe some of these gentlemen would gain considerably greater pleasure from acquiring a very cheap portable at a flea market simply because it was cheap rather than paying the full price for something better? For some collectors, the hunt and chase is one of the most enjoyable aspects of the hobby. Each to their own. I like the chase too but it would have to be concluded with something worthy of the time and effort, every once in a while. This has not been the case for me in the region I live!

All this really demonstrates is that there are different prices collectors will pay for the same item. Sometimes this can be based on what the market price is and other times simply based on what the individual will pay if the market demand is very low and that particular individual is very lucky. When price variations are factored in, it's not difficult to understand how a dealer can speculate that for specific high demand items, whatever he/she pays at auction might be added to for profit as someone somewhere will still pay a higher price if they are unable to find another example at the time they are looking for it.

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Re: "Trade Mark" on UK eBay

Post by soundgen »

As with all antiques and collectables prices of items can be variable , and I saw this in print it is a version of Mckeown’s Law adapted from the Camera collectors book which is very true !

McKeown's Law of collecting

1) The price of an antique or collectable is entirely dependant upon the moods of the buyer and seller at the time of the transaction .

2) If you pass up the chance to buy an item you really want , you will never have that chance again .

3) If you buy an item because you know that you will never have that chance again , a better example of the same item will be offered to you a week later for a much lower price !

soundgen
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Re: "Trade Mark" on UK eBay

Post by soundgen »

I have only ever owned one real trademark , it was really nice in its original shipping box from the USA , I bought it an auction in Colchester for £1,150 , the underbidder was trade , the collectors dropped out at £120 and the auctioneer went up towards my winning bid in £10 increments it was tedious so I bid £600 from £300 he then took it up £50 a go ! I bought it on a Tuesday and sold it at Portobello Road on the Saturday for £2500 , I was really pleased , later the collector who bought it swapped bits from another similar machine as they were brighter nickel , unfortunately the spring case was later so he almost ruined the original machine , I wonder where it is now ?

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Re: "Trade Mark" on UK eBay

Post by soundgen »

A few years ago Christie's had an unbelievably immaculate trademark machine for sale with a very large pile of very interesting Berliner records , a UK dealer told them that the machine must be reproduction as the condition was so good , they believed him and withdrew the lot WITHOUT contacting the vendor , the machine and records were subsequently bought by another UK dealer who's "shop" in Portobello Road London the vendor went to . The vendor was the son of an EMI director and the machine had been on his desk at the HMV Hayes factory for 30 years , he took it and the records when he left . Another true but strange story of collecting gramophones !

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