HMV RCA Orthophonic Victrola 78 Reproducer Counterspring

[burke]

Hi all, stumbled on this looking for something else. Rather long detailed explanation by the seller/inventor.

I simply don't have the expertise to judge whether this would do what it claims [saving wear and better fidelity]. It is a 'buy it now' item but ends Sunday April 1st.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/HMV-RCA-Orthop ... SwiDFYMK9b

Any thoughts?

PS. also of slight interest - note its on a Silvertone which has been an interesting thread lately elsewhere.

[Teak]

Henry Seymore did this in the 20s with most of his tonearms, especially on Vesper machines. I am still not over the shipping loss of mine...

[burke]

So not all that new of an idea after all.

For the record I'm not interested as in thinking of buying ... just curious if the principles described are actually sound.

[Phototone]

The weight of the soundbox and condition of the needle are indeed factors in record wear, however the whole mass of the tonearm being pulled across the record is another important factor. Equally important, and a case could be made that a lighter tracking force could increase groove wear if the mass and friction of the tonearm were great.

[estott]

It could be useful on specific records

[PeterF]

I'm going to guess that the engineering teams of the major manufacturers, therefore well funded and staffed, had springs available to them for study and use in this application...and didn't implement anything like it.

If this idea were to have come from some new technology that wasn't available at the time, I'd be more accepting. But it's not, so I'm not.

We have to figure they did all sorts of experimentation and testing of all sorts of stuff like this, and rejected it for cause.

[CarlosV]

I use springs to reduce the force on the records, in the same way as the advertisement. I bought a box of springs and connected with wires to the soundbox and to the arm end on some of my gramophones. The spring actually reduces wear, which is measureable because I utilize thorn needles, but there is no audible improvement as the ad claims. Evidently the spring tension needs to be adjusted individually to keep a certain weight on records and allow proper tracking.

As to the a previous post referring to original designs, there is a number of tonearms made in the 10's that have off-loading springs - I have a couple of them, made in England. It should be noted also that the manufacturers were not interested in extending the useful life of records, but actually the opposite. Their profits came from the sales of records.

[PeterF]

Excellent point! I wonder, though, whether phonograph manufacturers that did not also have a record business were tacitly going along with that approach. They would have no reason to.

From a marketing standpoint, wouldn't it be logical to try to grab market share from the behemoths by being able to demonstrate less wear to records from your spring-enhanced or lightened or otherwise improved system?

[estott]

I use springs to reduce the force on the records, in the same way as the advertisement. I bought a box of springs and connected with wires to the soundbox and to the arm end on some of my gramophones. The spring actually reduces wear, which is measureable because I utilize thorn needles, but there is no audible improvement as the ad claims. Evidently the spring tension needs to be adjusted individually to keep a certain weight on records and allow proper tracking.

As to the a previous post referring to original designs, there is a number of tonearms made in the 10's that have off-loading springs - I have a couple of them, made in England. It should be noted also that the manufacturers were not interested in extending the useful life of records, but actually the opposite. Their profits came from the sales of records.

I found the best thing to do when using thorn or bamboo needles is to disengage the automatic stop. The drag they add is slight but needles will last longer without it.

[CarlosV]

[

I found the best thing to do when using thorn or bamboo needles is to disengage the automatic stop. The drag they add is slight but needles will last longer without it.

Good point, I did that on my Credenza, mostly because I find the click-click of the auto break annoying, and I added a spring to off-load the weight. With new back rubbers on the soundbox, it tracks well and has a reduced level of wear. I kept the auto stop engaged in my HMV 113 (a kind of oversized 130 with a handle on the side and twice as heavy, made for India market), but I will disengage it and see the effect on the wear.

As to Peter's comment, most publicity of record makers concentrated on quality of reproduction: loud sound, velvet surfaces, full spectrum, listen to the bass etc. Indeed some advertisements claimed longer records life, in particular when Gramophone was trying to fight Pathé in the French market. They advertised on the records sleeves that disposable needles were better because the needles would wear and keep records longer, while sapphire needles would cause fast wear to the records. Specifically on the subject of pressure on the record groove, there are examples of manufacturers that issued reproducers that increased the pressure to obtain louder reproduction, causing shortening of record life - see Edison with his Dance reproducer and the early Columbia cylinder reproducer that had springs to increase the pressure of the needle on the cylinder.