HMV 100 - early version

[leels1]

Almost like it’s too good to be true. Black 102s going for £250/ £300 plus. Who pays those sorts of prices?

Maybe I’m being cynical but I’m sure there’s scams on eBay with things like this “selling”. Who’d ever think selling gramophones could be dodgy in general.

The world of gramophones has had its fair share of "dodgy" dealers for a long time! As for the prices of 102s, I don't find the prices all that remarkable. They have been selling for well over £150 in good condition for as long as I can remember with almost mint examples nearing £350. The problem is - and this is one of my great bugbears about the way the trade and hobby is perceived in general - a lot of people are blissfully unaware of the condition of an item when it sells on any given day for a very low price or when an identical item sells for a very high price the next.

Condition is everything. For example, an average 102 might be £120-150 on a "normal" day but a factory condition example could easily fetch 3 times that. If you haven't personally inspected every item sold, you can't honestly judge whether the price is uncharacteristically high or low or whatever.

Whenever I hear anyone say, "that's a lot of money for xxxx", I usually ask them if they can get me one the same for a much cheaper price. They usually go very quiet!

This is true, there are unscrupulous "dealers" who will purport something is what it isn't, but if you have a lot of auctions going for expensive machines that "never arrive" you could move quite a bit of money around quite quickly, especially if the same ones are sold and relisted multiple times.

I think you're right on condition and I forget there are others out there that would pay large amounts more for something that's perfectly mint. I'm perhaps more rustic and as long as it works and is in very good condition I don't mind so much, and am happy to buy a cheaper machine to restore to something *like* near mint. Example, I have a 101 red deluxe where the catch has been painted gold and is not original. It looks fine and the rest is great, but can see how that would put some people off.

[Sherazhyder]

Interesting conversation! So I thought I should add the news from the post colonial subcontinent too. Here in Pakistan, HMV 100,101 and 102, 103 constitute the bulk of surviving and working gramophones. Some individuals still have the colonial 101 in teak too. Understandably the 100-103 HMV series have a high survival rate because of its superior quality, and technology. The cloth covered wood cabinets with wooden boards in green and black have proven to be more resistant to wear and tear as compared to wood veneer cabinets. The usual asking price for a working machine with average look and a replacement sound box is about USD 100. However those of exhibition grade sell for about USD 200-250. Rarely, I come across ones in blue and reddish maroon colours. But they are more expensive.

A number of enthusiasts have replaced the cloth with leatherite too. But giving a new leather upholstery to these machines is quite a difficult task. Turning the leather sheet on the corners and edges needs an expert’s hands.

Other HMV colonial models (like HMV 179, HMV 112, HMV 109, HMV 113, HMV 113 a, HMV 118 and HMV 114 etc.) also come up for sale in the market but they are usually of not very high outlook.

[Steve]

Interesting conversation! So I thought I should add the news from the post colonial subcontinent too. Here in Pakistan, HMV 100,101 and 102, 103 constitute the bulk of surviving and working gramophones. Some individuals still have the colonial 101 in teak too. Understandably the 100-103 HMV series have a high survival rate because of its superior quality, and technology. The cloth covered wood cabinets with wooden boards in green and black have proven to be more resistant to wear and tear as compared to wood veneer cabinets. The usual asking price for a working machine with average look and a replacement sound box is about USD 100. However those of exhibition grade sell for about USD 200-250. Rarely, I come across ones in blue and reddish maroon colours. But they are more expensive.

A number of enthusiasts have replaced the cloth with leatherite too. But giving a new leather upholstery to these machines is quite a difficult task. Turning the leather sheet on the corners and edges needs an expert’s hands.

Other HMV colonial models (like HMV 179, HMV 112, HMV 109, HMV 113, HMV 113 a, HMV 118 and HMV 114 etc.) also come up for sale in the market but they are usually of not very high outlook.

Thank you for your appraisal of the market in the former colony. It is a very interesting perspective. I wonder what your opinion is on all the painted HMV portables and often modified examples, including rare models with Swiss fittings etc., that seem to be popular and offered on the market at the present time?

[Sherazhyder]

“ I wonder what your opinion is on all the painted HMV portables and often modified examples, including rare models with Swiss fittings etc., that seem to be popular and offered on the market at the present time?”

Steve ! You have asked me a very interesting question and I believe that I am the most suitable person to answer it as I have personally witnessed the emergence of the phenomena called crap o phone and franken phone, both of which had originated from the sub-continent. Each of the two post colonial states specialised in one of the two types of talking machines. While Pakistan exclusively monopolised the franken phone assembling industry from late 1970s to early 2000s, India specialised in the production of crap o phones.

The franken phone industry, emerging in times when compact cassette wrote condemnation of old gramophones, had churned out external horn gramophones by mostly cobbling together original spares from colonial models of HMV machines, and Swiss company Pillard’s Thorens motor run machines. These parts would be installed in locally made wooden cabinets and the machines were made operational by adding locally manufactured cast iron back brackets, tone arms (connected to Columbia, HMV or Pathé soundboxes) and beautifully crafted brass horns with a delicate elbow. All these machines were sold under the HMV logo. These machines were very sturdy but still the sound quality was not very impressive owing to inadequacies of the tone arm. These machines were sold at a roadside kiosk next to a five star hotel in the city of Karachi. In times when there was no internet to market these machines, a small entrepreneur did not have the resources to export these to Europe. However these machines did the European markets courtesy the European guests staying at the five star hotel and buying these machines believing them to be original. In early 2000s, the guy who ran this business died and the production of crap o phones came to an end. All the Franken phones appearing in European markets since early 2000s are those which were exported to Europe in an earlier period. No body tried to produce franken phone in Pakistan after the death of the guy who had initiated this business. It seems , he in his life time had already consumed whatever original gramophone parts were available in Pakistan. After him, there were not enough salvaged parts in the country to carry on the franken phone business.

Crap o phone, usually a cheap imitation of a standard franken phone in a square box, are massively produced in India. Lately, these machines come in round and hexagonal shapes too. They are made of parts entirely produced afresh in India and run by an Indian copy of 533 Thornes motor. Their external horn is made of very light copper material. Sometimes, they are fitted with tin horns painted in bright colours as well. These machines are exported to Europe, Middle East and even to Pakistan. Their retail price ranges between USD 40 to 60 depending upon the design. Usually each order to a factory is for not less than USD 1000.

In comparison to a crap o phone, a franken phone is much better option for its use of original compatible parts. I personally have two franken phones each fitted with an original Thorens motor and HMV sound box No. 2 or 5. By improving their tone arms and plugging the air leakage, I have been able to produce good results from these machines. .