Help with Garrard/20mm Motorboard combination

[VintageSoundz]

Good Morning Folks.

Does anyone know which if any Garrards will run adequate turntable clearance through a 20mm motorboard (plus a bit for the rubber mounts)?

I am looking to install a double spring Garrard in my "Swissie" as the original motor is now worn beyond renovation.

The preferred configuration is separate barrels, 1st "stationary" wind to spindle, 2nd barrel discharge from spindle (avoiding a single or two connected barrel arrangement which tend to fly about on windup and discharge causing that nasty slithering noise even when freshly lubricated).

I think the 1a & 10 models (and possibly some others) fit this spec - need the speed control UNDER board not under turntable as I wish to preserve the integrity of what appears to be an early machine (straight tone arm). Can't use those with a fitted metal board as I don't wish to cut away half the motor board and again, "not period".

Has anyone done a similar satisfactory conversion - thanks in advance.

Dave.

[emgcr]

You will probably achieve the turntable level you desire with most Garrard motors but may have to counterbore the underside of the deckboard to set the required height. The main problem is going to be in matching the winder position in two dimensions but, if the variation from the original position is small, you may get away with increasing the escutcheon size to disguise the alteration. Use of the Super Motor, which has a plunge rod operated from the top for speed control, can also achieve a similar result but a bit of re-engineering is required---see attached photo. In all cases, employment of Mollart (universal) joints will solve the winder problem and enable re-use of original holes etc but considerable work/cost is involved.

[VintageSoundz]

Thanks for that.

Certainly a very impressive exercise using the ultimate "Super" unit.
I had already ruled out this motor as the speed arm is "rigid" and, set probably too close to motor board to allow operation of the original dial up/down swivel arrangement - it is spaced to line up with the metal table. From memory, I think Garrard speed levers come out at conventional 45 degree front right and are "bendable" to allow adjustment and have a half moon board mounted dial, similar to what I already have and thus acceptable if need to be substituted.

I can live with a second winding hole, the original is set very close to the deck overhang and is already partly obscured, also quite small (continental winding handles are thinner than average). With a piece of dowl and Mahogany staining, I can make it much less obvious - even when new, some Columbia horn models were fitted with aftermarket motors in pre-drilled cases resulting in a plugged hole so, I don't consider that to be loss of integrity.

My main query is whether there were any variations in spindle lengths across the Garrard range. The existing spindle is 47mm, the turntable sits quite low. Garrard turntables locate quite high on the spindle, therefore allowing for a shorter length.
I have calculated that a minimum spindle length of about 44mm will suffice, taking into account the higher seating.
The HMV 32 from my 109 has a 42mm spindle which would leave the turntable just resting on the board (HMV turntable sits midway between the existing arrangement and a Garrard) so - I'm almost there !

Most motors are flush mount and I don't fancy trying to bore out a complete motor shape, but any on "legs" - I could counter bore to compensate.

You might ask why I'm going to all this trouble for a humble "Swissie" - well the case is virtually unmarked, even well polished and the horn is one of those tin embossed ones. I like the fact that it looks really old.

Cheers.

Dave.

[emgcr]

The short answer to your question regarding possible varying spindle lengths seems to be that they are generally similar. There are exceptions, however.........

The attached photos show four different types of Garrard motor and all but the Super motor have spindle lengths above the top plate of 1 5/16ths inches---measured from the top plate to end of taper---not including the final parallel-sided boss. As you say, the top plates are mounted directly under the wooden deck-board with no "legs" (exception---the Super motor). The 10B has a bearing extension (¾" external diameter) above the plate which would require "letting in" to the underside of the deck-board by ⅛", although the usual rubber mounting washers, interposed between top plate and deck-board, might well accommodate this. The 11A (not pictured) is a smaller motor generally but the spindle extension is also 1 5/16".

The Super motor is the exception: it does have "legs" which can be either machined or "let in" but the exposed (free) spindle length is considerably reduced at ⅞". I have come across a rare variant which has a spindle ¼" longer---ie total 1 ⅛"---but this is very hard to find. It is worth mentioning that this motor is designed to sit on top of the deck-board under its own thin steel plate so is not easily modified for your purpose.

Setting any of these motors into the underside of the (wooden) deck-board is not a difficult job but does require a router or studious use of a chisel. You would probably have adequate residual structure starting from a thickness of 20mm, especially if you were to spread the load by using large diameter steel/brass washers between the bolt heads and the top of the deck-board. If the deck-board is made from plywood it is helpful to have an automatic visual check regarding depth of cut as each layer is reached etc.

It might also be worth pointing out that the relationship between winding shaft and turntable spindle can vary considerably (often in two dimensions) and this aspect is worth careful consideration when contemplating alternative motors.

There is one final thought which could be useful should the tracking be incorrect on the original machine (often wrong in my experience) which would be to take the opportunity of making a new deck-board (or just recut the existing spindle and speed control holes--perhaps to include blanking plates) and kill two birds with one stone?

I hope this is helpful.

[VintageSoundz]

Many thanks for the pics and info.

Based on about 31mm from top plate to tip of taper and a virtually flush mount, any of these should suit. If I do need to counter bore a few mm underneath then so be it, there's plenty to play with and it's solid Mahogany so no problem with flimsy plywood.
The pics are a great help, particularly the 1a which is my first choice.
Can you give me a bit more info on this one ?

Can't see the speed lever, presume that this attaches to the bolts adjacent to governor.

I seem to remember that this is a double spring each in own barrel and they operate independently (ie. not bolted together)- can't see from pic - can you confirm.

Also, do you happen to know spring lengths on this as original literature claims 3 12 inch plays on one wind compared to 2 for No 10 range, suggesting longer springs. Obviously don't expect that kind of performance now from "mature" springs but whilst I'm doing this exercise, might as well get the best one.

The tracking is fine within the parameters of your previously submitted documentation on this subject so again thanks for that info as well.

Your expertise and time is greatly appreciated.

Dave.

[emgcr]

Hello Dave,

I am afraid I have no direct experience of a Garrard 1A in operation and have never taken one to pieces. I just happen to have the one pictured which I bought with other spares. I do not know the spring details except that there are two, of course---not bolted together. The winding shaft centre line lies approximately 1 15/16" behind the spindle centre line and 1 ⅞" below the upper extremity of the top plate---all assuming right hand operation. The top casting measures 7 ⅜" X 3 ⅞" and the whole is 3 7/16" from the top of the upper side of the casting to the underside of the bottom plate.

I have attached photos of four other angles which I hope will help you. The speed control arm is missing but this is not difficult to custom make or borrow from another motor. As you suggest, it can be an advantage that this can be bent to achieve fine regulation.

The 1A seems to be an excellent piece of engineering. It is physically quite large and presumably powerful. On that basis I should think there is a good chance that original springs should still be quite usable when cleaned and re-greased. I have not seen the manufacturer's specification but I certainly get the impression that there might well be enough energy storage capacity for playing three 12" records. Certainly a good Super motor will achieve this although I still tend to partially wind after one or two sides as a matter of habit.

Good luck.

[VintageSoundz]

Many thanks again emger.

The search for a 1a has now started !!!

Dave.

[[gandt]monarch]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Garrard-11A-m ... 43d0cddc69 please see abov item.

[VintageSoundz]

Thanks for link but this is for an 11a, I am looking for a 1a.

Dave.