What makes a good reproducer work well?

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larryh
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What makes a good reproducer work well?

Post by larryh »

In a recent thread about needles and the importance they play in determining the sound, some of the European members chimed in on the fact that usually a well built and maintained reproducer from the orthophonic era on could, or should, play as well as any so long as properly maintained. That made me wonder if there are any particular secrets to producing the optimum sound from these late reproducers? I have been told that a good one working well shouldn't exhibit a metallic sound on loud portions, something I too dislike. But where does that effect come from or what might cure it? I know these are very subjective questions but I thought maybe some of our European friends may have some insight on how to bring these back to near original sound. Are there any particular "experts" that seem able to revive these or improve on them when needed?

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gramophone-georg
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Re: What makes a good reproducer work well?

Post by gramophone-georg »

Funny you brought this up. I recently acquired a Meltrope III and overhauled it... sounds OK but a nicely rebuilt Victor/ HMV no. 4 blows it away. As there are no adjustments on the Meltrope, I'm wondering why this is.
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CarlosV
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Re: What makes a good reproducer work well?

Post by CarlosV »

gramophone-georg wrote:Funny you brought this up. I recently acquired a Meltrope III and overhauled it... sounds OK but a nicely rebuilt Victor/ HMV no. 4 blows it away. As there are no adjustments on the Meltrope, I'm wondering why this is.
The Meltrope design is a very simple one, and essentially non serviceable/adjustable, apart from replacing the rubber connector to the tone arm. They are not rare nor expensive in Europe, I have a number of them: some sound good - better than a HMV 4 - but others sound horrible, and there is nothing that can be done to redeem that. But what should be taken into account is that the reproducer is only part of the whole system, and some reproducers will adjust better to a particular gramophone than to others. For instance, I replaced the Victor nr 2 I had on a Victor Schoolhouse with a good Meltrope, and it sounded WORSE.

Concerning mass-produced reproducers, the best one to me is the Victor orthophonic. But if we extend to the cottage industry, then the EMG/Experts stand out: despite being a spoof of the Exhibition, they were designed with the ability to adjust the position of the springs and compression of the diaphragm, which influence significantly their response WHEN used with a EMG/Expert machine. In another experimentation,I put the EMG soundbox replacing the Columbia on the Viva Tonal 810, and there was not noticeable improvement in the sound.

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Re: What makes a good reproducer work well?

Post by soundgen »

gramophone-georg wrote:Funny you brought this up. I recently acquired a Meltrope III and overhauled it... sounds OK but a nicely rebuilt Victor/ HMV no. 4 blows it away. As there are no adjustments on the Meltrope, I'm wondering why this is.
Meltropes sound brilliant if restored correctly , what did you do to yours to get it to sound only OK ? They always sound better than No 4s!

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Orchorsol
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Re: What makes a good reproducer work well?

Post by Orchorsol »

soundgen wrote:
gramophone-georg wrote:Funny you brought this up. I recently acquired a Meltrope III and overhauled it... sounds OK but a nicely rebuilt Victor/ HMV no. 4 blows it away. As there are no adjustments on the Meltrope, I'm wondering why this is.
Meltropes sound brilliant if restored correctly , what did you do to yours to get it to sound only OK ? They always sound better than No 4s!
Agreed, I have accumulated well over a dozen and have never encountered one that can't be made to sound excellent!

Nowadays I always use beige natural rubber tubing on all soundboxes (never white silicone rubber, which does not have the optimum combination of compliance and resilience) and with these Meltropes I always clean and grease the ball bearings and the faces they bear on. There is a slight adjustment to be had by not fully tightening the faceplate screws.
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gramophone-georg
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Re: What makes a good reproducer work well?

Post by gramophone-georg »

soundgen wrote:
gramophone-georg wrote:Funny you brought this up. I recently acquired a Meltrope III and overhauled it... sounds OK but a nicely rebuilt Victor/ HMV no. 4 blows it away. As there are no adjustments on the Meltrope, I'm wondering why this is.
Meltropes sound brilliant if restored correctly , what did you do to yours to get it to sound only OK ? They always sound better than No 4s!
When I got it, the diaphragm gaskets were hard as a rock. I replaced them and got rid of the rattle. I used the Exhibition style white tubing. The rubber mounting flange gasket is supple.

I tried it on my HMV 104 and my Victor V. Both the HMV 4 (on the V) and the 5b (on the 104) blew it out of the water. I get far better highs and clarity with both HMV products.

I did grease the little bearings, and the faceplate is snug- not gorilla tight. It doesn't rattle on high or loud passages.
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gramophone-georg
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Re: What makes a good reproducer work well?

Post by gramophone-georg »

Orchorsol wrote:
soundgen wrote:
gramophone-georg wrote:Funny you brought this up. I recently acquired a Meltrope III and overhauled it... sounds OK but a nicely rebuilt Victor/ HMV no. 4 blows it away. As there are no adjustments on the Meltrope, I'm wondering why this is.
Meltropes sound brilliant if restored correctly , what did you do to yours to get it to sound only OK ? They always sound better than No 4s!
Agreed, I have accumulated well over a dozen and have never encountered one that can't be made to sound excellent!

Nowadays I always use beige natural rubber tubing on all soundboxes (never white silicone rubber, which does not have the optimum combination of compliance and resilience) and with these Meltropes I always clean and grease the ball bearings and the faces they bear on. There is a slight adjustment to be had by not fully tightening the faceplate screws.
And our Mica Monster over here swears by medical silicone tubing, and his customers swear by him.

I'd like to know where both of you source what you use so I can get some of each and play around. From what I've read of these Meltropes this experience I am having is not normal and I would like to know why.

The Mel 3 I have has had the diaphragm painted copper- tone. Seems factory because there's no paint on the needle bar which seems permanently affixed somehow. Could that have anything to do with it?

Also, when I got it, the diaphragm had a dent in it, which I carefully rolled out flat and got it even with the rest of the diaphragm. This was how I know it was painted.

Not meaning to hijack Larry's thread here but I figure this is dead on topic.
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Orchorsol
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Re: What makes a good reproducer work well?

Post by Orchorsol »

gramophone-georg wrote:
And our Mica Monster over here swears by medical silicone tubing, and his customers swear by him.

I'd like to know where both of you source what you use so I can get some of each and play around. From what I've read of these Meltropes this experience I am having is not normal and I would like to know why.

The Mel 3 I have has had the diaphragm painted copper- tone. Seems factory because there's no paint on the needle bar which seems permanently affixed somehow. Could that have anything to do with it?

Also, when I got it, the diaphragm had a dent in it, which I carefully rolled out flat and got it even with the rest of the diaphragm. This was how I know it was painted.

Not meaning to hijack Larry's thread here but I figure this is dead on topic.
I totally respect the "your mileage may differ" thing. Often that's what makes this forum so great!

I haven't yet found a single excellent go-to source - I usually search for a cheap far-east supplier and take pot luck with what I get, discarding it if it's low quality. The last lot seems good: eBay # 361381094163
BCN thorn needles made to the original 1920s specifications: http://www.burmesecolourneedles.com

Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCe4DNb ... TPE-zTAJGg?

soundgen
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Re: What makes a good reproducer work well?

Post by soundgen »

I think there are four potential problems with Meltrope soundboxes ,

first is the gasket , I was given some thick but thin walled rubber by a German friend and this works well so try bicycle valve tubing ? , you also have to understand that the diaphragm should act as a piston it should ideally move in and out when vibrating without the diaphragm bending , of course this is impossible in practice but minimising the bending of the diaphragm is important , Mica is stiffer than aluminium and aluminium diaphragms can "tire" , this can be remedied by "spinning" the aluminium diaphragm , "spinning" of thin metals is of course done at high speed , but it can be done manually using the fat end of a tool such as a screwdriver , placing the diaphragm in a home made jig and rapidly moving the tool end in a circular motion over the diaphragm , this can make an amazing improvement in sound quality ,

Thirdly , the ball bearings often drop out when repairs are attempted they are then replaced with the wrong size of bearing causing a misalignment of the diaphragm

Fourth , the centre of the diaphragm is “push fitted “ with a small piece of aluminium either side this can become loose and yes OMG Superglue can help
Last edited by soundgen on Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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gramophone-georg
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Re: What makes a good reproducer work well?

Post by gramophone-georg »

Orchorsol wrote:
gramophone-georg wrote:
And our Mica Monster over here swears by medical silicone tubing, and his customers swear by him.

I'd like to know where both of you source what you use so I can get some of each and play around. From what I've read of these Meltropes this experience I am having is not normal and I would like to know why.

The Mel 3 I have has had the diaphragm painted copper- tone. Seems factory because there's no paint on the needle bar which seems permanently affixed somehow. Could that have anything to do with it?

Also, when I got it, the diaphragm had a dent in it, which I carefully rolled out flat and got it even with the rest of the diaphragm. This was how I know it was painted.

Not meaning to hijack Larry's thread here but I figure this is dead on topic.
I totally respect the "your mileage may differ" thing. Often that's what makes this forum so great!

I haven't yet found a single excellent go-to source - I usually search for a cheap far-east supplier and take pot luck with what I get, discarding it if it's low quality. The last lot seems good: eBay # 361381094163
Hmmm, that seems to be basically what I used. Scratching my head on this one. I can appreciate what an earlier poster said about the difference the machine itself makes, but I'd expect this Mel to perform at least on par with the existing soundboxes on the machines I'm using to test it.
"He who dies with the most shellac wins"- some nutty record geek

I got PTSD from Peter F's avatar

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