Need advice and help on ID a few Gramophones

[Nigel]

Good day to you all! This might be A long read but please hear me out if you are Willing.

I registered on this Website today after spending most of my time reading trough the Forums (Awesome Website btw!)

I have always loved Vintage Music my whole life, and I finally decided I want to make a first step into buying a Gramophone.

Now I have a few questions, about A few Gramophones I found Locally, and I would like some advice if these are genuine Gramophones, and are worth the asking Price.
Since this is my first Machine I will be Purchasing, I want to make a right choice. I hope anybody on this Forum can help me.

The first Machine is a Gramophone from the year 1914 (or so the seller claims). It has no Brand name, only the word ''Goldstern'' is on the side of the machine, and this person is asking a minimum of 300 euro's for it. See pictures named ''Brandless Gramophone with ''goldstern'' on the side'').

The second Machine is Appearantly A HMV model 162 (please confirm), and this seller claims that it has A ''Rare saxophone'' build in for the bestsound quality back in its days. This person is asking 400 euro for it. See Photo's called ''HMV 162''.

The Third Machine is a Unknown brand (seller didnt Specify it) and I would like to know what this is. He only has 1 Picture of it, and is selling this machine, including 2000 Records, for 975 euro in total. See photo called ''Machine + 2000 Records''.

Third one is a Strange one, and the Price is very low, wich makes me suspicious. I cannot see a Brand name. This person is asking 100 euro's. See picture named ''Cheap Machine''

These are all from local Persons, and not dealerships, or people who I know will only sell genuine ones, so thats why id like some advice, or if you advice me to only go to official known dealerships, please feel free to tell me also.

I want to thank anybody who reads this.

Have a good day.

[estott]

The brandless one is probably German, mde with german or swiss parts- they used those tiny horns for some reason. Never was an expensive machine and you will never get good sound quality from it.

The HMV looks like a mid priced machine but nice quality. I'll leave the details to experts, but it is by far the best of the group.

The machine + 2000 records is a typical assembled console- cabinet made in the UK, all the components are Swiss. Plain and low end, it might sound OK.

The cheap upright- that's about it. Like the other machine this has probably got a UK built cabinet and the components are all Swiss. It might sound OK, but the value is minimal. Thee name on the side is probably that of a dealer.

[Curt A]

The HMV is your best choice, but I don't know if it's worth 400 Euros... $458.06 USD...

[Nigel]

Hello, I want to thank you both for the quick reply. I had my eyes on the HMV aswell. I dont know how much its exact worth. I'm very new to this, even tho I try to read and watch alot of video's about this subject.

What HMV models would you all recommend for me to take a look at? I'm looking for a higher end model, and I got 1500 euro saved up for a machine, so thats my budget I guess. Also im open to suggestions on other brands. Also I am intrested in the Gramophones with the horns, the tabletop versions.

Once again I thank you all for the replies

[CarlosV]

What HMV models would you all recommend for me to take a look at? I'm looking for a higher end model, and I got 1500 euro saved up for a machine, so thats my budget I guess. Also im open to suggestions on other brands. Also I am intrested in the Gramophones with the horns, the tabletop versions.

I wold not recommend the HMV 162. It is not a well built cabinet, more on the cheapo side, and has a so-called saxophone-shaped horn, with a mediocre reproduction, not much better than a table top.
A much better machine is the HMV 163, the smallest of the re-entrants (English brand name for the US Victor orthophonics), a higher quality product both in terms of cabinet and sound reproduction. It is not a rare machine, and you will be able to find a good one for 400 GBP or less. There are the higher-end re-entrants, the 192, the 202 and the 203, but their prices are way higher than your budget.
If you want to go out of the main path there is the English Columbia, the nr 132 being their best product, with a quality of reproduction that to my ears is better than the 163 and the US Credenza. It is not so easy to find it, though, but given that is not an HMV machine it will not command the same high prices. It is the same case with the English Decca, the nr 77 being also their best product with a high quality of reproduction.

[epigramophone]

Welcome to the Forum Nigel. Here is my two pence worth :

CHEAP MACHINE : A close copy of the HMV145, the smallest of their exponential horn cabinet models. Unilkely to be built to the same standard as a genuine 145. Avoid.

MACHINE + 2000 RECORDS : Horizontal cabinets are unpopular with collectors because of the floor space they occupy. This one looks cheaply made and the legs may have been shortened. Avoid.

HMV162 : The so called "saxophone" horn HMV machines were designed to cope with the increased frequency range of the new electrical records, but within a couple of years HMV adopted the Victor Orthophonic horn design which they called the Re-Entrant. On a budget of E1500 you can do better than this.

BRANDLESS : Again a cheaply made unknown quantity. Avoid.

As others have said, the HMV163 is a thoroughly worthy machine, but on your budget you could consider an HMV511. Their sound quality is very good, and they are one of the best looking cabinet machines that HMV ever made. A 511 will be harder to find than a 163, but they do turn up from time to time.

[Nigel]

hello Carlos and Epigramophone,

I will definately look into the brand\models that you are suggesting, thanks for giving me some food for thought!

There are so many machines on the market, it makes it really hard for a inexperienced person to choose the right one.


Many thanks! and I will keep you all updated on the machine!

[Nigel]

Im trying to find a HMV 511, but I canot seem to find ANY! they are indeed really hard to find. Does anybody have any suggestions on where to look? I looked on Ebay, Google, but so far no luck.

Also I live in the Netherlands, and I cant seem to find any here.

Maybe I should find some trusted dealers and try my luck there!

Edit: Could I try my luck in england maybe? I mostly wonder if they ship overseas, thats the biggest problem I guess.

[alang]

Welcome to the hobby. Be careful, it can easily become and addiction.
I think you really have to decide first, what your main objective for this first gramophone purchase is. Do you want primarily listen to records and sound quality is important? Are these records going to be mainly pre-1925, or are you interested in later records as well? Or are you mainly looking for a functional gramophone with an external horn that has to display well?

If your interest is mainly listening to music at the best possible quality on an original machine, then one of the suggested options will serve you well. This will also allow you to listen to post-1925 records with good sound quality.
If you are mostly interested in an external horn gramophone that displays well, but should also be functional for occasional listening to early records, then you may want to look in that direction.

I do not live in Europe, but I can point you to two phonograph dealers in the Netherlands. That option will probably be more expensive than buying from a private seller, but at the same time you can also ask questions and hopefully get honest answers and information. There are probably other dealers in Europe and the UK as well. Others may chime in with more information and options.

http://zwarteschijf.nl/
http://www.phonograph.nl/

Good luck with your search. Don't rush it, with your budget you should be able to find a fine machine either way. Taking your time with comparing options will also help educate yourself.

Andreas

[CarlosV]

Im trying to find a HMV 511, but I canot seem to find ANY! they are indeed really hard to find. Does anybody have any suggestions on where to look? I looked on Ebay, Google, but so far no luck.

Also I live in the Netherlands, and I cant seem to find any here.

Maybe I should find some trusted dealers and try my luck there!

Edit: Could I try my luck in england maybe? I mostly wonder if they ship overseas, thats the biggest problem I guess.

I have seen some for sale in UK ebay every year or so, but you are correct about the shipment, all the ads I saw required collection. Even UK dealers don't know how or care for shipping abroad, the buyer would have to arrange for it. I used to hire a private driver to bring machines to me, but he changed jobs and I could not find any suitable (reliable) replacement.