Refinishing and Value Question.

[oldphonographsteve]

How much can refinishing decrease the value of a phonograph? I recently attempted to cover up a large scratched area on the lid of one of my Victrolas and it made the matter even worse. I ended up just putting some new shellac over the front of the lid and subsequently french polished it. It looks great and shiny, but how much does this impact the value?

-Steve

[larryh]

Shellac dries very shiny which is not the original look. To be correct you need to use some 000 or 0000 steel wool to buff it with the grain to knock the shine off a bit then wax it which should give it a closer to the original look. When applying shellac the way it comes from the can should be mixed with the same amount of denatured alcohol to make it reasonably thin so it will flow out better. Some times I takes a number of coats of the thin shellac to cover it well. The old finish I sand lightly to remove the worst bumps then wipe it off with a rag with a bit of lacquer thinner on it to pick up the dust. Running a vacuum with a brush heat will help that too. Let it dry for several days before buffing and waxing. If you look in the old messages here I have some shots of my Sonora table model small machine with before and after's of the finish.

Larry

[Jerry B.]

Every type of collectable has a different appreciation or tolerance of refinishing. Music box collectors seem to prefer refinished boxes. Talking machine collectors, which you would think are pretty closely related to music box collectors, seem to prefer original finishes. Of course there are exceptions but I believe the above statements are true. Jerry Blais

[BwanaJoe]

Being a newbie I can't speak numbers when how much it will or won't knock off the price. However, IMHO, something is original only once. I'd rather have slightly worn decals, striping, finish then a brand new shiny looking machine that just isn't quite right. Now if something is so far gone that is detracts from the overall appearance or functionality then it really should be replaced or refinished properly. In that case, while not being worth as much to me as an original item, it would surely be better than what was before.

I've come out of the collector car world an personally hate nothing more than some yutz who pulls off perfectly good parts and replaces them with something that honestly just looks WRONG because they are either lazy, cheap, or just want that shiny new look. If you'd like to see a good example of this check out an "original" WWII jeep. There are quite a few shops (and individuals) that specialize in ripping apart original jeeps and throwing in parts to make them LOOK original. And they don't. Oops, off the soapbox now...

[gramophone78]

It also depends on the rarity of the machine. Also, some collectors will not buy a machine that has been refinished.
If it's a common, inexpensive model.....then no harm in making look better for the masses.

By the way, what is the machine in question..??.

[FloridaClay]

Every collector will likely have a slightly different answer to your question. Originality is valued up to a point where the finish is in such bad condition that it is just plain ugly. Where that point lies is purely subjective and is different for every person. And as has been mentioned, rarity comes into play also. The more rare the machine, generally speaking, the more you'd want to keep it original. As for market value I think it is fair to say that a machine in good original condition will always be more valuable than a refinished machine, but there is also that magic point here. Disregarding purists who are likely not in the majority, at some point its original condition will be so poor that a properly refinished machine will be more attractive to most potential buyers. My own observation is that phonograph collectors as a whole are not anywhere close to the extreme you see in the antique furniture market where originality means value even if the condition is really poor.

If you have a machine that needs refinishing a good guide to what the finish should look like is often examining the inside of the lid and area around the turntable where the original finish is protected. Finishes varied widely from matte, to satin, to semigloss, to high-gloss mirror-like "piano" piano finishes. What I'd want would be duplicating that inside finish if I were redoing the entire exterior finish. If you are only repairing part of the exterior finish the goal would be to have it look like the other parts that were not refinished and that can involve "knocking down" the shine on the newly refinished part.

Clay

[oldphonographsteve]

It also depends on the rarity of the machine. Also, some collectors will not buy a machine that has been refinished.
If it's a common, inexpensive model.....then no harm in making look better for the masses.

By the way, what is the machine in question..??.

I hate to say it, but it was an oak L door XVI. There were two spots on the front of the lid where the original shellac was missing, and in accordance with Murphy's law when I tried touching it up it ended up making it worse. What I essentially did in the end was reamalgamate the original finish with new shellac added. The rest of the machine however is completely original, including the felt.

[Jerry B.]

If you repaired the finish because you believed the flaw was a major distraction, you did nothing wrong. Some Forum members believe flaws are part of the history of the machine and should be left untouched. I believe our treasured machines are still in a journey so if I can give a machine some good history by making needed repairs and refinishing, I'll do it. Jerry Blais

[winsleydale]

I view refinishing in a totally different light than most of the other members here (I think). If a machine is looking dull or worn, I won't think twice about rubbing in some stain to even out the color and putting on a coat of shellac.

The way I see it, there is no reason why my machines shouldn't last another 100, 500 or even 1000 years under the right conditions. This leads me to 2 possibilities: either they will not be mine forever, or through advances in medicine I will never die, and they will be mine forever. In either case, they will be needing maintenance. Part of maintenance is cosmetic, and another part is making sure everything is protected; since the finish protects the cabinet from rot in the same way that paint protects a horn from rust, I have a much higher interest in a good finish than an original one, provided it was properly done. Of course, it's obviously best for a finish to be good AND original, like my beautiful C-150, but that is not typically the case.

[Zwebie]

when I tried touching it up it ended up making it worse!

Steve,

We've all been there and done that. It's part of the learning curve of the seasoned collector.

What I like best about this forum, is that it's a good place to show pictures and ask for recommendations, before harming the originality of an item.

This is also why veteran collectors are willing to pay $4000 for a mint untouched original Oak L-Door XVI, and only $600 for a repaired or refinished one.

Bob S.