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 Post subject: 2 clip Edison Standard in need of lots of love
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:59 pm 
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Victor I
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:34 am
Posts: 151
Location: Spain
Hi all,

I am the very happy new owner of this 2 clip Edison Standard.
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As it is pretty obvious, it needs some care to recover all its beauty.
After two days of investigation I have lots of questions and surprises.
The very good news is that the machine looks like it has been very little used.
Its serial number is S13232 and its not in the Martin's Kauper registry.
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It's a machine for the UK market so instead of having the usual patent plate it has this one:
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The big surprise is that it came with the very scarce Edison Standard Speaker reproducer in pristine condition.
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It needs the shoe to be reglued to the glass diaphragm and of course new gaskets. Both the sapphire and cutter are like new.

So here are my questions:
- What winder is the correct one? The straight one or the "S shaped" one? If it is the S shaped one, does it need the famous medaillon?
- I need to recreate the top and bottom boards. I know that there are all the possible combinations of chamfered lids, decorating lips, routed bottom profiles, etc. So I will be very grateful if you help me decide how the top and bottom board should be profiled knowing that both lid and case have a small lip on the top.
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- As you can see in the first picture, it came also with a small square piece of wood. I think that it was a reinforcing piece of the corners but I dont see obvious traces of glue in the interior.
- I'm also looking for a shaver and the lid handle. I can reproduce the handle if I don't find one at good price but I will happily buy the shaver if I find one sensibly priced.

I will start this restoration in September-October so I have time to investigate and find the correct missing pieces.

Stay tuned!

Regards,

Pedro Martinez.


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 Post subject: Re: 2 clip Edison Standard in need of lots of love
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:48 am 
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Victor III
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:46 pm
Posts: 897
Location: riverside calif
That is a nice two clip Edison Bell square box. It also has a nice standard reproducer. Nice package. The crank takes a different one than a standard as it has a smaller hole to put on the crank shaft, It also has straight shaft and not a crocked one on a standard crank but the standard crank will work only it more sloppy to crank.. The bottom base will not be hard to make as it almost looks like a standard. The top section has different routing and you may have to locate one. Those Edison Bells were made for the Edison Corp in England. They were made from serial number aprox. 500 to around aprox. 15000 of and on in the Edison plant One of the shots shows where the gear cover goes and that it had been drilled for both a straight gear cover ar a angled cover. Tom


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 Post subject: Re: 2 clip Edison Standard in need of lots of love
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:18 am 
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Victor Jr
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:45 am
Posts: 49
You have there the most scarce of all Edison reproducers!! Congratulations!


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 Post subject: Re: 2 clip Edison Standard in need of lots of love
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:39 pm 
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Victor III
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:30 pm
Posts: 818
walser wrote:
Its serial number is S13232 and its not in the Martin's Kauper registry.


It is now. :mrgreen:

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Pedro -
As others have said, you have a very nice machine. Considering your talented restorations already posted on this forum, I'm sure that this will turn out a prized example of an early Standard. I'd encourage you to try to save the original case. (Yes folks, I'm a bleeding heart purist.) Your case would look like the one that Tom posted. As you have guessed, that top edge cut is likely from the original profiling.

As has been noted, the Standard Speaker is rare. It was only issued on the first Standards. Most people opted for the upgrade to the Automatic reproducer or the Model C, so there are few survivors with the Standard Speaker intact. This version of the Standard Speaker is interesting as it has no serial number and (as far as I can tell in the photos) no lettering anywhere on the body. I've seen this before on UK export machine #873 (an Automatic reproducer). Both reproducers look properly old, but I can't tell if they were made by Edison in N.J. or in the UK by who knows? I'd love it if Steve Medved could weigh in on this.

If you decide to make the wood parts (rather than use cannibalized replacements), I'm sure everybody here would be happy to provide measurements. Looking forward to seeing your progress.

Martin


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 Post subject: Re: 2 clip Edison Standard in need of lots of love
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:55 am 
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Victor I
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:34 am
Posts: 151
Location: Spain
martinola wrote:
walser wrote:
Its serial number is S13232 and its not in the Martin's Kauper registry.


It is now. :mrgreen:

Pedro -
As others have said, you have a very nice machine. Considering your talented restorations already posted on this forum, I'm sure that this will turn out a prized example of an early Standard. I'd encourage you to try to save the original case. (Yes folks, I'm a bleeding heart purist.) Your case would look like the one that Tom posted. As you have guessed, that top edge cut is likely from the original profiling.

As has been noted, the Standard Speaker is rare. It was only issued on the first Standards. Most people opted for the upgrade to the Automatic reproducer or the Model C, so there are few survivors with the Standard Speaker intact. This version of the Standard Speaker is interesting as it has no serial number and (as far as I can tell in the photos) no lettering anywhere on the body. I've seen this before on UK export machine #873 (an Automatic reproducer). Both reproducers look properly old, but I can't tell if they were made by Edison in N.J. or in the UK by who knows? I'd love it if Steve Medved could weigh in on this.

If you decide to make the wood parts (rather than use cannibalized replacements), I'm sure everybody here would be happy to provide measurements. Looking forward to seeing your progress.

Martin


Thank you Martin and Tom for all your information.

I'm also quite a purist and like to preserve as many pieces as possible. Usually I make the new parts as exact replicas as I can BUT with something that the trained eye can differentiate them from a genuine one: Different knurled pattern, stamped "M", etc. I will make the new wood top and bottom boards, handle and its hardware.

My first challenge is to try to find American white oak in this side of the pond at a price less than solid gold and without the need of buying a full forest :mrgreen:

I need to know the thickness of these 2 boards. The lateral boards are ⅓ inch thick but I suspect that the top and bottom might be ½. Can anybody confirm my suspicion?

Regarding the reproducer, I've dismantled it to replace the gaskets that where rock dry. It's a little marvel how all pieces fit together and after doing some forensic study in the screws (diameter, tpi, thread profile, head shape) I'm sure that this reproducer comes from an Edison factory.
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It would be very interesting if somebody could locate the owner of the 12021 serial number to check if the reproducer has serial number or not like mine. It's the only other Standard for the UK market with Standard Speaker reproducer registered on the list.

Stay tuned for more updates!

Regards,

Pedro Martínez


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 Post subject: Re: 2 clip Edison Standard in need of lots of love
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:43 am 
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Victor I
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:34 am
Posts: 151
Location: Spain
I forgot to mention another detail that points to the fact that its a genuine reproducer:

The lever of the reproducer has a tiny "T" stamped un the underside.
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And I've found this threads that show pictures of the Standard Speaker and they have also the tiny T stamped on the lever:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30127&hilit=edison+standard+speaker
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=25735&hilit=edison+standard+speaker

Regards,

Pedro Martínez


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 Post subject: Re: 2 clip Edison Standard in need of lots of love
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:51 am 
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Victor I
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:34 am
Posts: 151
Location: Spain
Mystery solved!

During lunchtime I took my industrial cleaning towels to clean the reproducer parts.

To my delight, under the dust a faint serial number appeared!
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54061

Regards,

Pedro Martínez


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 Post subject: Re: 2 clip Edison Standard in need of lots of love
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:17 pm 
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Victor III
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:30 pm
Posts: 818
Pedro -

Great news on your finding the serial number for the Standard Speaker.

I’m beginning to repent my quick identification of your case. As a general thing, the early cases for the Standard A started with the lid having a profiled top edge and a beaded bottom edge and the bottom case having a plain top edge.

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This configuration started to change in the 12000s. For a time, the top edge of the lid had the profile, but the bottom edge of the lid was straight. The bead was moved to the top edge of the bottom case.

The profiled top edge of the lid quickly gave way to the blunt/rounded top edge that we see on all of the subsequent Squaretop Standard cases. It is possible there were transitional versions during the switch. My 13452 has no beaded edge on the top or bottom. However that machine had passed through the hands of a collector who I have since observed swapping-out cases and not noting it - therefore I can’t absolutely say that it was really that way from the Edison Works.

Upon carefully comparing the photo of your lid with mine (from #873), the indentation at the top looks more like a sawed-off bead which should then be at the bottom of the lid close to where the clip attaches. This brings up the question if the lid was flipped over after or before initial assembly? Filled screw holes for the clips would indicate that. They would also indicate a conversion from 4 clip bottom to 2 clip top. If the current top edge of the lid really was the top edge there should be evidence of small nails.

The other possibility is that the lid is a replacement made from a bottom case that had the beaded top edge sawed-off. If that were so, then there should be evidence of screw holes on the bottom edge (near where the clip is attached). You might also in that case find two sets of screw holes for the clips.

Your machine was made during the time of the change-over so any number of possibilities exist. I’m sure you’ll get to the bottom (or top) of this.

Regards,
Martin


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 Post subject: Re: 2 clip Edison Standard in need of lots of love
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:27 am 
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Victor I
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:34 am
Posts: 151
Location: Spain
Hi Martin,

Thank you for all your information. I took the case to investigate all your questions and these are mu findings:

martinola wrote:
Upon carefully comparing the photo of your lid with mine (from #873), the indentation at the top looks more like a sawed-off bead which should then be at the bottom of the lid close to where the clip attaches. This brings up the question if the lid was flipped over after or before initial assembly?

As you can see in this picture, the profile of the lid indentation (left) is more square that the indentation of the base (right) so I think that its not a flipped lid.
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martinola wrote:
Filled screw holes for the clips would indicate that. They would also indicate a conversion from 4 clip bottom to 2 clip top. If the current top edge of the lid really was the top edge there should be evidence of small nails.

No filled holes at all in the case nor nail holes in the top edge. It's really clean all around and the only tiny hole I can see is caused by a wood worm.
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martinola wrote:
The other possibility is that the lid is a replacement made from a bottom case that had the beaded top edge sawed-off. If that were so, then there should be evidence of screw holes on the bottom edge (near where the clip is attached). You might also in that case find two sets of screw holes for the clips.

As said before, there are not traces of filled holes at all so it's not a 4 clip converted case or a flipped 2 clip case. The only nail/screw holes that I can see are 2 on bottom edge in the middle of the short sections. Also note that the lid is slightly taller than the base (see 1st picture)
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martinola wrote:
Your machine was made during the time of the change-over so any number of possibilities exist. I’m sure you’ll get to the bottom (or top) of this.

Regards,
Martin

I find fascinating this kind of investigations!
Next week I will start the search of a router bit(s) to mill the correct lid and base boards profile. Let's continue investigation till we have a consensus of the correct profile and thickness of both boards.

Thanks you all for your help!

Pedro Martínez


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