Berliner Gramophone No 4 (Victor A style) & Questions

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mattrx
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Berliner Gramophone No 4 (Victor A style) & Questions

Post by mattrx »

Exciting day at my house! My first Victor A (or any really early phonograph) arrived today while I was at work. I came home to find the box in perfect shape and the machine well packaged and in good order.

After unpacking and assembling the machine, I have a few questions.

1. So that I can approximate a manufacture date, where might I find the serial number or would there be one?
2. The machine is rather dirty, as expected. Should I clean it or leave it as is?
3. The machine came from England and it has an English reproducer (Scala Junior) on it, but not G&T, HMV or Victor. What are your thoughts on originality.
4. The seller packed a reprint from a French catalog showing this model machine. What can I look for to determine the machine's origin?
5. The record hold down is missing. Who makes the best reproductions that might fit this machine? Assuming originals are going to be very hard to source.

I'm sure I will have more questions, but these are what I have for now. Thanks in advance for any help!

Matt
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gramophone78
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Re: New (to me) Victor A and Questions

Post by gramophone78 »

This is actually not a Victor A but, a Gramophone of European origin. You may want to post this in the UK/Euro section so those collectors can provide you with the answers you seek.

From my limited knowledge, this model would have had a G&T marked Standard or Concert sound box. Not an easy item to find loose....at least over here and perhaps overseas.

By the way, the motor cover (jelly mold) was only nickel plated on overseas models and not generally found on a Victor A of US origin.

I think Eduardo in Peru makes a repro decal. You will have to see which variation your machine has...if made for the English, French or German, etc..markets

Regarding other repro parts....hopefully, the overseas collectors know if any are available.

This model was offered a few years longer than the short lived Victor A.

Nice looking machine.
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Jerry B.
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Re: New (to me) Victor A and Questions

Post by Jerry B. »

Would it have been made in the States and shipped overseas? Jerry

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Re: New (to me) Victor A and Questions

Post by jamiegramo »

Hi Matt,

This is a nice machine and was made by Victor or predecessor in the US but the presence of the rectangular decal mark shows it was sold in Europe by the Victor affiliated Gramophone co. It is an interesting point that gramophone78 has raised about the nickel plated motor cover indicating an export model as I have not heard it before. I know they have appeared in Britain in nickel plate or a bronze finish.

In Britain it was sold as the style No. 4 from 1900. Sales were poor and it is certainly an unusual machine. The black horn you have suggests it is an earlier machine. The soundbox should either be the Clark Johnson or Concert. The concert soundboxes were all made by Victor but the exported ones have the Gramophone and Typewriter logo which isn't any easier to find than the Victor logo ones, perhaps even harder as the gramo co. dropped this reproducer sooner than Victor. The Scala soundbox is much later and belongs to another machine.

The record clamping plate you have seen on eBay is a repro and seems grossly over-priced as such. I know someone in the States on eBay was selling them at a much more reasonable price. Anyway it appears a nice original machine with horn, crank and elbow but if it was me I would probably remove at least some of that black from the oak base.

Jamie
Last edited by jamiegramo on Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New (to me) Victor A and Questions

Post by Zwebie »

Hi Matt,

This is a Berliner Type 4 Gramophone, sold in several countries outside the U.S., see pic.

(By the way there was one nickle plated "jelly mould" machine sold in the U.S., the extremely rare Berliner JS Gramophone).

Nice find, Bob S.
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Re: New (to me) Victor A and Questions

Post by mattrx »

jamiegramo wrote:Hi Matt,

This is a nice machine and was made by Victor or predecessor in the US but the presence of the rectangular decal mark shows it was sold in Europe by the Victor affiliated Gramophone co. It is an interesting point that gramophone78 has raised about the nickel plated motor cover indicating an export model as I have not heard it before. I know they have appeared in Britain in nickel plate or a bronze finish.

In Britain it was sold as the style No. 4 from 1900. Sales were poor and it is certainly an unusual machine. The black horn you have suggests it is an earlier machine. The soundbox should either be the Clark Johnson or Concert. The concert soundboxes were all made by Victor but the exported ones have the Gramophone and Typewriter logo which isn't any easier to find than the Victor logo ones, perhaps even harder as the gramo co. dropped this reproducer sooner than Victor. The Scala soundbox is much later and belongs to another machine.

The record clamping plate you have seen on eBay is a repro and seems grossly over-priced as such. I know someone in the States on eBay was selling them at a much more reasonable price. Anyway it appears a nice original machine with horn, crank and elbow but if it was me I would probably remove at least some of that black from the oak base.

Jamie
Jamie,

Thank you for your information! Now to find the right reproducer and record hold down nut-and possible a correct reproduction decal.

I did clean the wood base and began to clean the "jelly mold" case last night. It was missing a screw from one end of a governor spring and I replaced that. Thank goodness the spring was not broken or missing a weight, as I have not seen any like them before.

Thanks,

Matt
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mattrx
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Re: New (to me) Victor A and Questions

Post by mattrx »

Zwebie wrote:Hi Matt,

This is a Berliner Type 4 Gramophone, sold in several countries outside the U.S., see pic.

(By the way there was one nickle plated "jelly mould" machine sold in the U.S., the extremely rare Berliner JS Gramophone).

Nice find, Bob S.


Your information and the nice pictures are much appreciated. I assume that you think my machine is a similar model to yours pictured, just that yours has been completely nickel plated (even the horn). That is a very nice machine indeed.

Do you have any clue as to where I can get the proper transfer/decal. If not, can you take a picture of one you may have so that I may have it reproduced? Further, what diameter of reproduction or original record hold down nut should I be looking for? The nut from my early Victor R fits, but obviously looks incorrect on the machine.

Thank you,

Matt

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Re: Berliner Graphophone No 4 (Victor A style) & Questions

Post by jamiegramo »

Hi Matt,

I'm curious as to whether you can see any written details on the gold decal? It looks like it's all rubbed away. Assuming it was sold here in Britain there are 2 'basic' patterns of decal this could be. The earlier 'Gramophone Company' decal as in the picture provided by gramophone78 or the later 'Gramophone and Typewriter' one. There is also a similarly shaped French decal. I know that the G&T decal has been copied and they can even print you a version with no gold background so you could perhaps overlay it on the existing gold to keep that original.

However as you have the earlier horn this may have been the earlier decal and I'm not sure if that has been copied. Anyway you could always leave the decal as it is.

I thought Victor/Gramo record clamping plates were all pretty much the same size and interchangeable? I've seen differences in the grip knurling and the earlier Berliner ones have a hole at the top. Hopefully someone will know more.

Jamie

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Re: Berliner Graphophone No 4 (Victor A style) & Questions

Post by phonogfp »

Gregg Cline may have the decal you need:

https://www.phonodecal.com/shop/phonograph-decals

Note especially this one:

https://www.phonodecal.com/shop/phonogr ... /gt-london

George P.

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Re: New (to me) Victor A and Questions

Post by gramophone78 »

Jerry B. wrote:Would it have been made in the States and shipped overseas? Jerry
No machines were ever imported complete from the USA. From the start, and up to 1914, mechanical components were ordered from Eldridge Johnson, for assembly in London, and initially the cases came from cabinet makers in the States, too, but by about 1905 many were being made in Germany and, a bit later, in furniture factories in the UK.

The fact that this machine has a black horn, rather than a nickel one, implies that it is no later than October 1902.

Does the motor have a two or three weight governor..?.

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