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 Post subject: Re: Victor Changer Type 1 Pot Metal Replacement Parts & Gear
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:20 pm 
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Victor O
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:56 pm
Posts: 66
Location: Michigan
Hello Wayne,

As a new owner of one of your restored 10-50s, I appreciate and applaud everyone's efforts to recreate these parts. I love my 10-50! Restoring these fabulous machines to their original glory is a labor of love and those of us who benefit from that truly appreciate all that you do!
Roy


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 Post subject: Re: Victor Changer Type 1 Pot Metal Replacement Parts & Gear
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:01 pm 
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Victor II
User avatar
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:58 am
Posts: 380
Location: Florida
Roy, Bob, Ken, Mark, Peter, and all fellow VE 10-50 lovers,

Your kind (and funny) words are always appreciated.

Abe,

3D ABS Replacement Parts Form-Fit-Function Evaluation - Part Two

The following details the results of my function testing of the 3D replacement parts printed in ABS plastic:

RECORD PAD & MAGAZINE STAND BASE:

1. With the adjustments made to the Record Pad as detailed in Part One, both of these parts test perfect when discarding and changing 10” or 12” records (with the exception of what is stated below).

2. As mentioned in Part One, the Record Pad does need to be made of metal. The extra weight of metal would allow it to counter the tension of said spring and rest in its proper position.

COLLAR ARM:

1. Unfortunately, due to the extra thickness of the lip detailed in Part One, this part could not be tested since when installed, it would inhibit the tonearm from rocking up into its off-record position.

GEAR ASSEMBLY BASE & GEARS:

1. Unfortunately the Gear Assembly Base will need more work. The small ¼” shaft gear over laps the ⅜” shaft partial gear that is mounted on the vertical shaft coming from the bottom of the changer by 50% to 75%. Also, the centers of these two shafts are not in alignment. Same results on Early/Mid or Late style changers. If I removed the two mounting bolts, I could position the Gear Assembly so things line up but then of course the mounting holes don’t line up with the female threads on the changer. The easiest fix to this would be to re-locate the two mounting holes. However, one hole would come extremely close to the part edge and therefore that area of the part should be slightly increased in size. I had the exact same situation occur with the cast aluminum prototype and applied the same resolution to the casting pattern and hole drilling positioning. I will email pictures separately.

2. Also, the mounting holes should be increased to ¼”. I will edit and add this detail to Part One.

RECORD SIZE SELECTOR LEVER:

1. Lever mounts nicely on the long shaft coming from the Gear Assembly but was unable to turn due misalignment of the gears mentioned above.

Summary:

1. I will mail you back the Collar Arm, Record Pad, Record Size Selector Lever, Gear Assemby Base and the Gears so you can address the issues detailed in Evaluations Part One and Two with the 3D company and hopefully your would then be able to send me the replacements when resolved.

2. The gears are okay with the increases of the hole sizes but thought you might want to verify the gear misalignment on your changer. I recommend do so on the changer out of the cabinet and upside down for easy installation and verification.


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 Post subject: Re: Victor Changer Type 1 Pot Metal Replacement Parts & Gear
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:16 pm 
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Victor III
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:25 pm
Posts: 613
Location: North Central Iowa
Couldn't you glue a weight under that record lifting pad, if that would save money on that part? I know what you mean though about that needing to drop back down all the way so it doesn't rub on the bottom of the record.

The fiberglass part that's on the tone arm of my 10-70 also caused trouble by rubbing underside the motor-board and I had to do some filing on it as well. You wouldn't think it to look at those parts, but they really are carefully fit into the space they work in. I do think that piece should be aluminum there since that needs to be fairly tight on the tone arm or it gets out of adjustment easily. I had to put friction tape around the base of my tone arm and that helped a lot with that problem. Maybe the resin you guys are working with won't cause any trouble in that regard.

Well good luck with all your work. Earl.


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 Post subject: Re: Victor Changer Type 1 Pot Metal Replacement Parts & Gear
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:03 pm 
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Victor II
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:23 pm
Posts: 202
Location: Navarre, Ohio
Victrola-Monkey wrote:
Roy, Bob, Ken, Mark, Peter, and all fellow VE 10-50 lovers,

Your kind (and funny) words are always appreciated.

Abe,

3D ABS Replacement Parts Form-Fit-Function Evaluation - Part Two

The following details the results of my function testing of the 3D replacement parts printed in ABS plastic:

RECORD PAD & MAGAZINE STAND BASE:

1. With the adjustments made to the Record Pad as detailed in Part One, both of these parts test perfect when discarding and changing 10” or 12” records (with the exception of what is stated below).

2. As mentioned in Part One, the Record Pad does need to be made of metal. The extra weight of metal would allow it to counter the tension of said spring and rest in its proper position.

COLLAR ARM:

1. Unfortunately, due to the extra thickness of the lip detailed in Part One, this part could not be tested since when installed, it would inhibit the tonearm from rocking up into its off-record position.

GEAR ASSEMBLY BASE & GEARS:

1. Unfortunately the Gear Assembly Base will need more work. The small ¼” shaft gear over laps the ⅜” shaft partial gear that is mounted on the vertical shaft coming from the bottom of the changer by 50% to 75%. Also, the centers of these two shafts are not in alignment. Same results on Early/Mid or Late style changers. If I removed the two mounting bolts, I could position the Gear Assembly so things line up but then of course the mounting holes don’t line up with the female threads on the changer. The easiest fix to this would be to re-locate the two mounting holes. However, one hole would come extremely close to the part edge and therefore that area of the part should be slightly increased in size. I had the exact same situation occur with the cast aluminum prototype and applied the same resolution to the casting pattern and hole drilling positioning. I will email pictures separately.

2. Also, the mounting holes should be increased to ¼”. I will edit and add this detail to Part One.

RECORD SIZE SELECTOR LEVER:

1. Lever mounts nicely on the long shaft coming from the Gear Assembly but was unable to turn due misalignment of the gears mentioned above.

Summary:

1. I will mail you back the Collar Arm, Record Pad, Record Size Selector Lever, Gear Assemby Base and the Gears so you can address the issues detailed in Evaluations Part One and Two with the 3D company and hopefully your would then be able to send me the replacements when resolved.

2. The gears are okay with the increases of the hole sizes but thought you might want to verify the gear misalignment on your changer. I recommend do so on the changer out of the cabinet and upside down for easy installation and verification.


So, would you consider letting me ad my five cast aluminum parts for an early 10-50 to your set of 21 to be machined; but mine at my expense? They look pretty much like yours. If not; I will probably send them to Pedro Martinez to machine along with the excellent original parts to use as a pattern. The only parts I am not sure about is the record sliding pad and the size selection knob. Although I still support you herculean efforts; If I can get my parts in with your bulk machining project and pay for the machining of mine--why should I purchase the same parts that I already had cast. Am I missing something here? My machine is not sitting all over the place. The cabinet is in tact as well as the turntable and all of the original parts except the record sliding piece and the know which are broken and are not good patterns to machine. I also asked about the fiber gears; or would you possibly sacrifice a set of your brass gears for my machine? I am sure that if things panned out for me through you; you would have none of your personal time put into my castings and I would be able to do any minor filing or fitting of my parts, once machined as necessary. Thanks! Mark Roberts


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 Post subject: Re: Victor Changer Type 1 Pot Metal Replacement Parts & Gear
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:39 pm 
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Victor II
User avatar
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:58 am
Posts: 380
Location: Florida
I’m sorry Mark, I have too many aches and pains in my body to take on any additional machining projects. All my castings are identical to each other and once I personally machine one set, I am hoping my local machine shop with their computerize equipment, can duplicate my work times 20. Your castings are not identical to mine and therefore would create many additional issues.

Additionally, my aluminum Gear Assembly Base casting is designed to fit the Boston Gear Company brass gears (model and source mentioned in an early posting on this topic) which have slight differences in dimensions than the original pot metal gears. I only had their shaft hole sizes increased and had pin holes drilled. The length of the gear hub would have to be milled shorter to fit the original designed Gear Assembly Base.

You know, these gears are simply for changing the record size, which in my mind should be a low priority. If I were you, especially since you have invested so much into the parts you have, is to get the record changing function to work first. That of course will take plenty of effort to get your machinist and yourself to get the Record Pad, Magazine Stand Base, and Collar Arm to function properly. These parts and function needs to work before worrying about changing the record size in my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Victor Changer Type 1 Pot Metal Replacement Parts & Gear
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:06 pm 
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Victor II
User avatar
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:58 am
Posts: 380
Location: Florida
I HAVE COMPLETED THE MACHINING OF 11 CAST ALUMINUM SETS !!!

I was able to bring the time of machining and testing just one set of the previous prototypes from 5 days to 2 days. Then once I had my methods down, I was able to machine and test 10 of each part per day for 5 days for a total of 54 hours of machine time plus additional time expent on testing. What an exhaustive week it has been. I plan to put myself through the same punishment next week for the remaining 10 unmachined sets.

The machine shop I used to have the gears drilled and bored were unable this week to even give me a price to do this work. So I had to go ahead and figure out better ways of doing things myself. For example, instead of using the bench grinder to remove 3/16” of thickness on the underside of the Record Pads, I used my 10” bench drillpress with a end-mill bit. Then I finally improved my technique and safety methods after bending the shaft of my first two drill-presses. I used nearly the same method to thin the lip on the bottom of the Collar Arm, see photo. I had to buy a bigger drillpress vise to hold the grey PVC junction box (stuffed with wood) I used to provide the support to swivel the Collar Arm around during the milling process. Also after burning out the motor of my 6” metal chop-saw, I bought a 14” metal chow-saw that made cutting that slice in the Collar Arm clamp a much more reasonable process. Certainly life would have been a lot easier if the foundry updated the pattern with the corrections instead of me having to machine them on each part produced, but with my demented drive, the job has been accomplished.

This weekend I still will need to prep and paint the Record Pad and Magazine Stand Base (black), as well as doing the same for the Record Size Selector Lever (color matched to its escutcheon plate). Also I will be cutting the felt for the Record Pads and the Record Shoot Guide . I’m providing the Shoot Guide felt with each set so the felt will match the Record Pad. The color of this wool felt is an exact match to the Record Platter felt sold by Cyper-Tiger on eBay and is the best in matching the original wool I have found. Lastly, I will be installing the included hardware provided with each replacement set. New felt for the Record Drawer sold separately. However and of course, the four Boston Gear Company brass gears will be included.

I will be contacting those of you that have previously expressed interest in obtaining a set or sets later this weekend once I have finished the above final items. I will post final photos of the parts. Price = $550 per complete set, includes US priority mail shipping (the higher than anticipated price reflects the tremendous level of machining required that was initially expected to be handled by the foundry and the additional power equipment needed to get the job done).

I will be posting part installation videos in the near future.

NOTE:

There are two different sets available, Early/Mid and Late style. Two of the five cast aluminum parts are unique to the two different styles of type 1 changer phonograph:

1). The Early/Mid Magazine Stand Base uses a brass dowel while the Late style uses a black bolt/nut made available with a brass tube for smooth pivot operation.

2). The Early/Mid style Record Pad does not have a little notch in its corner like the Late style has. This is due to the gold nut and bolt that exist and extends from the Record Lifting Ring on the Late Style and would jam up the pad if the notch were not incorporated. The Early/Mid style uses a pin which does not extend out towards the corner of the Record Pad.

The biggest and quickest way to determine which style VE 10-50 you have, is that the lamp is above the turntable on the Late and down to the left of the turntable on the Early/Mid.

In a previous post I had indicated that there is a 3 degree difference between the angles of the two shafts in the Gear Assembly Base. As opposed to creating two different cast parts for the two style changers (as was done at the factory) to keep the short shaft of the Gear Assembly Base in alignment with the intersecting vertical shaft and gear coming down from the bottom of the changer, I resolve the issue in a better way. I increased one of the two mounting holes in the Gear Assembly Base to 5/16” from ¼”. This provides the slight room to align the intersecting shafts and gears prior to tightening the two mounting bolts.


Attachments:
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C09B81C9-A5DE-474B-A3ED-176435A1AE30.jpeg [ 2.55 MiB | Viewed 112 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Victor Changer Type 1 Pot Metal Replacement Parts & Gear
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:45 pm 
Offline
Victor II
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:23 pm
Posts: 202
Location: Navarre, Ohio
Victrola-Monkey wrote:
I HAVE COMPLETED THE MACHINING OF 11 CAST ALUMINUM SETS !!!

I was able to bring the time of machining and testing just one set of the previous prototypes from 5 days to 2 days. Then once I had my methods down, I was able to machine and test 10 of each part per day for 5 days for a total of 54 hours of machine time plus additional time expent on testing. What an exhaustive week it has been. I plan to put myself through the same punishment next week for the remaining 10 unmachined sets.

The machine shop I used to have the gears drilled and bored were unable this week to even give me a price to do this work. So I had to go ahead and figure out better ways of doing things myself. For example, instead of using the bench grinder to remove 3/16” of thickness on the underside of the Record Pads, I used my 10” bench drillpress with a end-mill bit. Then I finally improved my technique and safety methods after bending the shaft of my first two drill-presses. I used nearly the same method to thin the lip on the bottom of the Collar Arm, see photo. I had to buy a bigger drillpress vise to hold the grey PVC junction box (stuffed with wood) I used to provide the support to swivel the Collar Arm around during the milling process. Also after burning out the motor of my 6” metal chop-saw, I bought a 14” metal chow-saw that made cutting that slice in the Collar Arm clamp a much more reasonable process. Certainly life would have been a lot easier if the foundry updated the pattern with the corrections instead of me having to machine them on each part produced, but with my demented drive, the job has been accomplished.

This weekend I still will need to prep and paint the Record Pad and Magazine Stand Base (black), as well as doing the same for the Record Size Selector Lever (color matched to its escutcheon plate). Also I will be cutting the felt for the Record Pads and the Record Shoot Guide . I’m providing the Shoot Guide felt with each set so the felt will match the Record Pad. The color of this wool felt is an exact match to the Record Platter felt sold by Cyper-Tiger on eBay and is the best in matching the original wool I have found. Lastly, I will be installing the included hardware provided with each replacement set. New felt for the Record Drawer sold separately. However and of course, the four Boston Gear Company brass gears will be included.

I will be contacting those of you that have previously expressed interest in obtaining a set or sets later this weekend once I have finished the above final items. I will post final photos of the parts. Price = $550 per complete set, includes US priority mail shipping (the higher than anticipated price reflects the tremendous level of machining required that was initially expected to be handled by the foundry and the additional power equipment needed to get the job done).

I will be posting part installation videos in the near future.

NOTE:

There are two different sets available, Early/Mid and Late style. Two of the five cast aluminum parts are unique to the two different styles of type 1 changer phonograph:

1). The Early/Mid Magazine Stand Base uses a brass dowel while the Late style uses a black bolt/nut made available with a brass tube for smooth pivot operation.

2). The Early/Mid style Record Pad does not have a little notch in its corner like the Late style has. This is due to the gold nut and bolt that exist and extends from the Record Lifting Ring on the Late Style and would jam up the pad if the notch were not incorporated. The Early/Mid style uses a pin which does not extend out towards the corner of the Record Pad.

The biggest and quickest way to determine which style VE 10-50 you have, is that the lamp is above the turntable on the Late and down to the left of the turntable on the Early/Mid.

In a previous post I had indicated that there is a 3 degree difference between the angles of the two shafts in the Gear Assembly Base. As opposed to creating two different cast parts for the two style changers (as was done at the factory) to keep the short shaft of the Gear Assembly Base in alignment with the intersecting vertical shaft and gear coming down from the bottom of the changer, I resolve the issue in a better way. I increased one of the two mounting holes in the Gear Assembly Base to 5/16” from ¼”. This provides the slight room to align the intersecting shafts and gears prior to tightening the two mounting bolts.


Hello Wayne!

Time to smoke the peace pipe.

I understand everything that you told me about my parts--that issue is done. I will sell or trade those off at a cheaper price to someone who might want to "Play" with them.

Since I was and continue to be one of your most ardent supporters; and since I was one of the few originally who requested a set of your parts when ready--please put me down for a set of your finished parts when ready. I don't know if it matters; but I think I said several times that mine is an early version of the machine. Also--will you be including gears since you are machining the parts to your specifications. This is a harmless question about an issue that I am still a little unclear on. I hope and pray that your health issues clear up so that you can continue to work with your love for the "monstrous" machines. I have been through some of the same; but fortunately was able to get back most of my range of motion and strength with a couple of major surgeries. I do remember the few years that I could not move and work on my jukeboxes; so I can empathize with your frustration. Just keep looking forward--no backwards. All my best is with you as you continue with this endeavor. You can PM or e-mail me if you want to discuss anything further. Many Thanks! Mark Roberts


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 Post subject: Re: Victor Changer Type 1 Pot Metal Replacement Parts & Gear
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:08 pm 
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Victor II
User avatar
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:58 am
Posts: 380
Location: Florida
The first production run just passed its Nipper final inspection, which was overseen by the assistant inspector, see photo below. Below that photo are ones of what a complete set looks like and what comes with it. I will contact those that have expressed interest in obtaining a set, later today as well.


Attachments:
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84FF8DAD-1E5A-4821-A337-06A68D4314E1.jpeg [ 3.05 MiB | Viewed 33 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Victor Changer Type 1 Pot Metal Replacement Parts & Gear
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:40 pm 
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Victor II
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:23 pm
Posts: 202
Location: Navarre, Ohio
Victrola-Monkey wrote:
The first production run just passed its Nipper final inspection, which was overseen by the assistant inspector, see photo below. Below that photo are ones of what a complete set looks like and what comes with it. I will contact those that have expressed interest in obtaining a set, later today as well.


Again--ABSOLUTELY PERFECT and with the brass gears, too!! So much BETTER than I could have ever done with any pieces/parts I have been holding onto for years. Can't wait to get my set and tear into my machine. Sure I will need a little advice; but just as how to mount the record pad and other "tweaking" problems.

YOU THE MAN, WAYNE!
Mark Roberts


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