G&T Gramophone on Ebay: Anything wrong with it?

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bart1927
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G&T Gramophone on Ebay: Anything wrong with it?

Post by bart1927 »

I saw this "supposedly" G&T gramophone for sale, in the very country I live in. Since it's only 500 euro's and there's not a single bid on it (it ends in 24 hours) I was wondering what was wrong with it. Because, as they say, when something looks too good to be true, it probably is.

Thanks a lot for your opinions on this machine.

eBay Item #121125770538

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Steve
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Re: G&T Gramophone on Ebay: Anything wrong with it?

Post by Steve »

Bart

It is probably ok but the horn "looks" a bit suspicious to me. You have to wonder how the bell came to be so dented and yet the conical body of the horn remained in near perfect condition. I wonder if the horn isn't a repro and has been "disguised" with dents to give it some age? The skills do not exist today to be able to manufacture perfectly spun brass horns. Often the bells have evidence of ring marks and battering the thing with a small hammer might disguise this? I could be wrong but in my experience of not trusting anyone on eBay, I have always been right to be suspicious. My worst fears are always confirmed, sadly!

Having said that, I note it is a "Victor 1" or "New Victor" but unlike the standard model it does not have the large red banner transfer with Nipper. This machine "normally" has the first ever use of Nipper adorning the cabinet. Without him it is a bit of a dog of a model! :lol: The one thing that normally attracts collectors is missing. I have never seen that particular motor or speed control before either but they must be right for it. I do have a Victor 1 / New Victor but it doesn't look the same as this one. The angel plaque is very faded and I wonder if the cabinet has been in strong sunlight for a long time. Obviously it couldn't have ever lived in the UK then! :lol: Maybe the cabinet has been refinished a long time ago and Nipper has been lost?

The brake has been moved and the seller freely admits this. The soundbox thumb screw has been repaired too. It is not an expensive machine though and should sell well above that price normally. There might be a surge of last minute bidders. If not, then others have probably identified a few issues as I have and simply don't want it. It isn't exactly a rarity.

Steve

budsta
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Re: G&T Gramophone on Ebay: Anything wrong with it?

Post by budsta »

I have one that has the speed control in the same spot but the escutcheon is oval and not round. The motor board is not hinged and the motor is accessed from underneath. It has the G&T transfer but not the large red banner one with nipper. The cabinet moulding is slightly different and horn is black and brass. Mine doesn't have the angle plaque and never has had. I assume mine is an early example of the "baby" monarch range.
I thought the example on ebay was ok, just over restored.

Stephen

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Steve
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Re: G&T Gramophone on Ebay: Anything wrong with it?

Post by Steve »

It didn't exactly fly off the shelf, did it? Did the buyer get an unexpected bargain?

When you say "over restored", what are you referring to? The seller claims it is all original, just cleaned up a bit, although to my eyes the winding handle does look too good and so do the bolts holding the back-bracket on and possibly the 'Y' shaped elbow clamp even. Pictures are deceptive; it could be worse in the flesh but some of it does look very bright and freshly plated, if not newly reproduced parts.

That is an unusual motor and very early to be mounted on the base like that. I thought all Victor 1's had the conventional hinged motor-board. You learn something new every day.

budsta
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Re: G&T Gramophone on Ebay: Anything wrong with it?

Post by budsta »

Hi Steve

Maybe "over restored" wasn't the right term but it is obvious it was a restored machine.
Refinished case, polished horn, new turntable felt.
I didn't study it as close as you but I see what you mean about the horn clamp. It just doesn't look right.
The back brackets bolts look replated.
My one has had the case redone and the nickel has been polished off the tone arm and elbow. The black and brass horn is untouched original. It is exactly as I got it about 20 years ago.
I don't refer to it as a Victor 1 as I have a record sleeve that advertises the machine as the "baby monarch".
Do you UK collectors refer to this as the Victor 1 ?

Stephen

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Steve
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Re: G&T Gramophone on Ebay: Anything wrong with it?

Post by Steve »

Hi Stephen

Well, that's a good question! Until the arrival of the book "His Master's Gramophone" we didn't really have a name for it but it's not exactly a common machine anyway. According to Proudfoot and Oakley it is a "New Victor" and although described as being an imported Victor 1, it was sold by G & T to fill the space in the market for a cheap and affordable horn machine with tone-arm.I always associated the name "Baby Monarch" with the later version with Morning Glory horn. That of course is a horn unique to this model. The name "Baby Monarch" was christened by the Australians. It is also used in UK and the European continent to describe this early machine.

My "New Victor" has the all-brass horn, red banner transfer and black/gilt back-bracket. The motor is the small single spring mounted on the underside of a conventional hinged motor-board. I did polish my brass horn as it was too tarnished and flat looking to leave alone. It looks great now. The case is all original and the transfers are perfect. It does have its original felt but similar to your machine the brass parts: soundbox, tone-arm and elbow have worn through to brass in places through a lifetime of cleaning and polishing.

Steve

budsta
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Re: G&T Gramophone on Ebay: Anything wrong with it?

Post by budsta »

Hi Steve

I looked at the record sleeve again and it is pictured with a morning glory horn.
Mine is one of my favourite machines. I love the small proportions of it.

cheers

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Steve
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Re: G&T Gramophone on Ebay: Anything wrong with it?

Post by Steve »

Is this a UK machine? I think not! It's a GERMAN machine.

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Re: G&T Gramophone on Ebay: Anything wrong with it?

Post by Starkton »

This is of course no "UK Machine"! It is named "Victor" in the Deutsche Grammophon A.G. catalogue of 1905 and was the smallest machine with tone-arm. Price 75 Mark, equivalent to $18 in 1905. All important parts look original, but an ignorant person stripped the dark stained oak case. The "Grammophon" and "Nipper" decals were thereby destroyed and the angel plaque seriously injured. Certainly no bargain and rightly ignored by serious collectors.

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Re: G&T Gramophone on Ebay: Anything wrong with it?

Post by soundgen »

Some people like restored machines ! I have seen total reproduction machines sell on Ebay for more and where would you find an unrestored machine anyway .I think it was a bargain and good luck to the buyer !

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