The new guy with a Columbia basket case

[phonogfp]

Thanks for the serial number, Adam.

I believe you need the solid traveling arm (earlier) rather than the pierced traveling arm (later).

With your machine being numbered relatively high (I am surprised to see a number so high on this variation of the AH), it's probable that the turntable you need is the conventional cast-iron model. My early AH is No.2470 and the turntable is cast aluminum with the edges machined smooth. The cast-iron model will be much easier to find - good news!

Best of luck with your restoration!

George P.

[Jerry B.]

Adam posted a photo of a complete AH with his last post. The horn appears to have an aluminum elbow. Is that a Talk-O-Phone horn and elbow? Is everything else correct? Jerry

[Adam_G]

Jerry brings up a good point about the elbow. I don't really know kind of elbow this machine is supposed to have, it it seems there's a leather, brass, and aluminum version? From what I'm told, this combined with the length of the support arm can be used to determine the size of the horn. Seems like there are numerous horn sizes floating around and I don't know which is the right one. I've attached pictures of the measurement of the support arm and it looks to be about 9" long itself, and about 14.5" long from the center spindle to the end of the arm.


George: I think you're right about the traveling arm being the solid version. Looks like if 'COLUMBIA' isn't embossed on it, then it isn't on the traveling arm either.

So you're saying the serial number means this was the 30181th unit to come out of the factory? Seems like a large number to be considered 'early'. Do you know if the cast iron and cast aluminum turntables had the same dimensions? If so, then I should be able to use either the steel or aluminum version depending on what I can find. I also have the ability to cast aluminum, but not steel, so I could make this part if I had to.

Who on the forum would have this same machine that I could implore to dimension some parts for me?

[phonogfp]

Jerry brings up a good point about the elbow. I don't really know kind of elbow this machine is supposed to have, it it seems there's a leather, brass, and aluminum version?

Unless you're considering the 36" horns made available in 1904 (these require a special support arm and traveling arm), there are only leather or brass elbows The brass is relatively easy to find (there's a beauty available on Yankee Trader right now!), and considering your serial number, I expect brass is correct.

George: I think you're right about the traveling arm being the solid version. Looks like if 'COLUMBIA' isn't embossed on it, then it isn't on the traveling arm either.

So you're saying the serial number means this was the 30181th unit to come out of the factory? Seems like a large number to be considered 'early'.

No, your machine is presumably the 30181st NUMBERED AH to leave the factory. Very early examples of the AH have no serial numbers apparent. Now THAT seems crazy to me - especially from a company that had been selling serialized talking machines for a decade. My gut tells me that those serial numbers are there SOMEWHERE, but the owners I've corresponded with swear that there are no numbers to be found. If that's indeed the case, who knows where the serial numbering began? This is one of the crazier mysteries of our hobby in my opinion.

As for your serial number specifically, I agree - - that seems like a lot of machines for a variation that doesn't turn up too often. I'm baffled by the serial numbering of the early AH.

Do you know if the cast iron and cast aluminum turntables had the same dimensions? If so, then I should be able to use either the steel or aluminum version depending on what I can find. I also have the ability to cast aluminum, but not steel, so I could make this part if I had to.

These were both 10" turntables, so ostensibly the dimensions would be the same.

Who on the forum would have this same machine that I could implore to dimension some parts for me?

Unfortunately, my early AH was later equipped with a 36" brass horn and special support & traveling arms. Other than those parts, I'll be happy to send you any measurements you need.

George P.

[Lucius1958]

Jerry brings up a good point about the elbow. I don't really know kind of elbow this machine is supposed to have, it it seems there's a leather, brass, and aluminum version?

Unless you're considering the 36" horns made available in 1904 (these require a special support arm and traveling arm), there are only leather or brass elbows The brass is relatively easy to find (there's a beauty available on Yankee Trader right now!), and considering your serial number, I expect brass is correct.

According to Baumbach & Lackey's entry on the first style AH:

"Both variations included... Improved Reproducer (Analyzing available in 1903), 22" black horn with brass bell and leather elbow..."

This, of course, isn't gospel, but it might serve as a rough guide.

Bill

[Adam_G]

I found an old AH ad that has an image of the same graphaphone I have, and if I use the measurement of the support arm that I have (9”) and scale this image down to match that, I get the measurements shown in the attached picture.

Bill, it looks like it could be 22” long, but 20" seems to be what I'm getting. Has anyone heard of a 20" horn? I did also find some auctions on other websites that had an AH with an 18” horn, and that could be ok too.

Or am I measuring this wrong? Is the measurement decided by the over-all length of the horn from end-to-end, or just by the black portion of the horn that’s visible (not including the bit that would be inside the elbow)? Because if that’s the case, then a 14” would fit too (it would end up being about 1” shorter than the illustration, but still pretty close.)

[Jerry B.]

Based on Adam's very first photo which shows the support arm attached to the cabinet, what length of horn should he be looking to buy? Would either a leather elbow or brass elbow horn be correct? Jerry Blais

[phonogfp]

Based on Adam's very first photo which shows the support arm attached to the cabinet, what length of horn should he be looking to buy? Would either a leather elbow or brass elbow horn be correct? Jerry Blais

All the original literature I've seen has specified a 22" black & brass horn. That measurement runs from the small end clear out to the lip of the brass bell. Over the years I've found some of these stated horn measurements to be slightly off - and sometimes the measurement is correct measuring in a straight line; other times the tape must run along the entire linear shape of the horn out to the lip of the brass bell. But if it's a B&B Columbia horn measuring within an inch or so to 22", that will be the one.

As for the elbow, it's a good question. With a serial number that high, I don't think you can go wrong either way (leather or brass). As I posted on this thread on Jan. 14, I'd bet that brass is correct, but I'd love to see the documentation to settle the question either way.

Here's a very nice elbow available right now:
http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... ow#p145855

The dimple and screw hole will correspond to a Columbia horn (except the very earliest that took leather elbows).

George P.

[Jerry B.]

George, Thanks for your post. The horn with the elbow would be slightly longer and a 20" horn with the brass elbow could be very close to 22". A horn that accepts the brass elbow would be much easier to find than a leather elbow horn. If I were Adam, I would look for a horn very close to 20" that accepts the brass elbow. Jerry

[Adam_G]

Thanks guys!

Sounds like I'll keep my eyes peeled for a 22" horn with brass elbow. So far all I could find is this one on ebay which is a little rich for me:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Columbia-Graphop ... SwsFpWRml9

And I'm wondering what you guys think of this conversion turntable:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/10-Standard-Talk ... 33963099ce

Sounds like older 78's use a larger diameter hole than newer ones. I'm liking this smaller spindle idea so that I could play newer records rather than just be limited to the older ones. Wouldn't be to hard to make a smaller to larger spindle sleeve for this in case I found an older record I wanted to play.