The new guy with a Columbia basket case

[martinola]

Adam,

Shellac is very forgiving, but working with it is very different than varnish or polyurethane. Shellac dries very quickly and does not give you time to work out brush marks. Brush marks really don't matter too much in that you will be doing a final sand and polish. The key is to build it up in thin coats.

Expect to use 12 or more coats by the time you are done. It really isn't as bad as all that sounds in that re-coat time is about 30 minutes to an hour. You'll want to sand about every 3rd coat. Shellac does take a while to harden up, so you'll need to take breaks in the process to let things harden up before sanding. If you fill the grain, you'll need fewer coats to get the finish flat. Try this on a piece of scrap white oak to get a feel for the process before you tackle the machine.

Also, remember that you can start with Amber shellac to get the color match and then switch to the "Clear"(actually a lighter yellow)to build up the finish. I'm sure others will have better suggestions, but this is what has worked for me. There are other threads that deal with this in greater detail, so I would spend some time poking through them. The main thing is to be very patient and not try to rush things.

Good luck!

Martin

[Curt A]

Another "one more thing"... If you plan to replace the decal on your machine put it on after you have done several coats of shellac and then put the amber shellac over the decal which blends it into the finish and makes it look aged...

Someone mentioned brushing it on, but I have had great success with applying it like a tung oil finish, with a clean cloth (no brush marks)...

[Lucius1958]

I have had some good results with shellac, using a modified "French polish" technique.

With new veneer, the first thing is to fill the grain. With oak, a black filler is generally best: rub the filler in thoroughly, and then sand it smooth.

Then use clean cotton or linen rags; fold them up into a pad, with one side presenting a smooth, unwrinkled surface. Moisten the pad with thinned shellac, and add a few drops of oil (lemon oil is good) to lubricate it.

Rub the pad over the wood, moving in circles, ovals, and figure-8s.Never let the pad stop while it is on the surface.

Repeat the process, renewing the supply of shellac and oil as needed, until you have built up a sufficiently thick, shiny layer of finish.

Note: This technique works best on large, flat areas. Detail work is best gone over with a small brush ("glazing"), with the outer surface polished as above. I hope this has been helpful.

Bill

[Curt A]

I have had some good results with shellac, using a modified "French polish" technique.

With new veneer, the first thing is to fill the grain. With oak, a black filler is generally best: rub the filler in thoroughly, and then sand it smooth.

Then use clean cotton or linen rags; fold them up into a pad, with one side presenting a smooth, unwrinkled surface. Moisten the pad with thinned shellac, and add a few drops of oil (lemon oil is good) to lubricate it.

Rub the pad over the wood, moving in circles, ovals, and figure-8s.Never let the pad stop while it is on the surface.

Repeat the process, renewing the supply of shellac and oil as needed, until you have built up a sufficiently thick, shiny layer of finish.

Note: This technique works best on large, flat areas. Detail work is best gone over with a small brush ("glazing"), with the outer surface polished as above. I hope this has been helpful.

Bill

Well said... the complete process...

[Adam_G]

Curt, I was headed for shellac all along but wanted to see if there was any votes for varnish or poly. Doesn't seem like it, so shellac it is! I had to search online a bit to determine how to decode the Lot Number bullseye puts on their cans instead of an expiry date like they used to. After learning the code and heading to the hardware store I discover over half the cans on the shelf are from 2012...yeeesh. And again I had to find a decoder ring for the Titebond liquid hide glue because they don't use a date anymore either. Luckily the one I picked up is only a few months old. The shellac is a just under a year old, but it's the newest can I could find.

Also, I had read about that technique you described for applying new decals to a shellac'd surface somewhere here on the forum before. I took note of it as I do have new decals and even found some of the decal set and sol stuff. So far all my ducks are in a row.


Frank, thanks for the link and the description of the ray-flakes. It was very clear and I understood what you meant before even going to your link. Now I'll know how to 'lumber talk' at the store during my searches.


Martin, everything you describe about shellac is pretty much what I've been finding in my research. I do have some scrap white oak that I can do tests on to get the hang of it before tackling the real thing, so I'll try some of the methods you and the others described. I'm thinking that rub-on technique with a rag that you and Bill describe might not work for me since I don't have a lot of large flat surfaces. This wood had been neglected so it's pretty rough in some spots and I'm worried that if I try any kind of rubbing method that the cloth would snag some of these fibers/rough edges and either pull some wood fibers free or rip some lint off the cloth and get stuck in the grain. There's quiet a few nooks and crannies on this box, not to mention the rippled details on the bottom edges and the 'rope' along the lid, so I'm thinking a brush is in my future. I think if I thin the shellac with some isopropyl alcohol and do a bunch of thin layers with a brush, I should be ok.

How about just spraying it? I have a few paint guns that could do this job methinks.

I'm a bit worried about any sanding and polishing that needs to be done to the shellac between coats because of this rough/frail fiber condition; I don't want to bust anything off by accident.

Lastly, I did notice that the new wood I have has a very clean grain compared to the old wood that has darker spots, so I may just have to experiment with this dark filler you and Bill speak of to fill the grain and level things out. But being completely flat may not be a high priority since this rough fiber issue will be pretty prominent anyways. I'll see what I can sand smooth first, but I think there's too many fibers missing already for me to every hope for a flat finish.

[Adam_G]

Oh yea, there's been some developments while we've been discussing wood types and finishes.

There was one piece of trim missing from the side of the box, and after finding some quarter sawn white oak, flattening it out with the jointer (after restoring the jointer), and finally cutting it to size, all I had left to do was a ton of hand sanding to get the shape just right. I'm pleased to say that I got everything to fit perfectly on the first try!

Missing piece goes where the faint outline is

My jointed and sanded block, with the piece cut off

First try!

Then I tossed a little water on it to see how the finish would compare:

water finish test

I'm thinking I need to 'age' any new wood or veneer I put on this box to try and get it similar looking to the old stuff. did some reading and how-to watching, and it looks like I can mix up a batch of aging stain using some steel wool and vinegar. Again, I do have a couple spare boards of white oak that I can do tests on before doing anything to the good pieces.
Like this, but a little more thinned out so I don't get too much of a stain:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lMwlYAKMfQ

Then I got to thinking about hide glue and how it's likely what's holding most of this box together, and that it can be released with heat and you can re-position things. I've always thought that the base of this box had swelled due to humidity or something and created this gaps at the bottom corners and figured I'd just have to live with it. Now I'm thinking I can heat it up and use some clamps and pull it back together because what's likely happened is the hide glue just got really warm in the summer and this bottom trim has just been easing away from being square.

This is a corner that doesn't touch at the bottom.

You can see the gap at each corner

So I started removing all the screws from the bottom that I thought had been put there during manufacturing to hold things in place while the glue dried. I didn't want anything to break when I would get to the clamping portion of this process, so I took the screws out.

Screws removed

But something unexpected happened instead:

Bottoms off!

Seems those screws just held the base and walls together and there was never any glue between them at all! Makes sense from a manufacturing point of few.This may make things easier for the heating up and clamping process as I don't have to worry about accidentally heating up the glue that holds the walls together. This also makes finishing a little easier as I could do the lid, walls, and base separately.

Before I can try any of that however, I need to first clean this again because there was a lot of filth trapped under there:

Needs cleaing

Which brings me back to my veneer problem; Curt mentioned I should look for a junker machine with the veneer I need. Welllllllll the piece of veneer on this base is the same stuff I need (and at the size I need) and it's held on with hide glue! So technically I could heat this up, peel off that veneer, and relocate it to the lid. Then I can use my new roll of veneer to do the base since you don't see very much of it when everything's together. Thoughts?

[Curt A]

"Welllllllll the piece of veneer on this base is the same stuff I need (and at the size I need) and it's held on with hide glue! So technically I could heat this up, peel off that veneer, and relocate it to the lid. Then I can use my new roll of veneer to do the base since you don't see very much of it when everything's together. Thoughts?"

Great idea, since it the correct vintage and the correct Columbia veneer... I would definitely use it.

As far as darkening the wood with steel wool/vinegar, I would not do that. The result is too contemporary and once done, it would be hard to change... You would be better to bleach dark areas of the case before finishing to get them all looking similar. Also, if there is any original finish left on the case, use stripper and wipe the resulting sludge over the entire case to blend in the new wood. Then choose a light stain that will get the whole thing evened out (after removing the stripping sludge) and after that, use the shellac...

The brewed tea/coffee idea is a good one for aging that won't color the wood to dark...

Your repair looks great...

[Adam_G]

Ok, using that veneer from the base isn't going to work. For some reason I didn't see the obvious problem of having 8 giant holes from the screws. These would end up being smack in the middle of each side of the lid. Maybe the dirt was obscuring this from my tunnel vision. It was pretty dirty:

After just wiping off the dirt

And this is as clean as I could get it. It's just become permanently stained with age:

Cleaned to the max

These are the rough edges I was talking about that would hinder me from doing a rub-on application of the shellac:

rope trim around the lid edge

ribbed trim on base

As for that steel wool/vinegar stain; I wasn't going to make a super strong solution like that guy did. I just need to tint the wood enough to make it match the old wood. Might toss some tea in the mix as well.

Curt, I did a test on a scrap piece using the sludge from stripping it off the base like you suggested, and it didn't want to take on newer wood. I rubbed it in good, but it just sat on the surface and mostly evaporated away. More tests are needed.

[Curt A]

It might depend on the stripper that you used. I usually use a gel stripper that is not necessarily eco-friendly... and it doesn't evaporate away. I'm confident that you will find something that will eventually work - stain, tea, etc. to blend the old with the new...

As for the rough surfaces, they need to be sanded before refinishing or the roughness will remain and detract from your project.

[Curt A]

You might still be able to use the veneer from the bottom if you don't try using it as one whole piece. It looks like there is enough in the center between the holes on the top and bottom to use for the sides on your motor board, since you don't need to cover the center hole... You would have to split it in two and use one half for the right side and one half for the left. This might work if your top has enough good veneer to fill the other areas... just a thought.

Edit: Looking back to your first pic in your original post, it looks like the veneer is missing from the left side of the motor board, so this could work... The rest of the veneer on the motor board looks like it could be salvaged and repaired....