Bargain Amberola b1

[phonogfp]

Hey Guys,

The ID plate reads model A. The internal hardware has a gun metal finish. The serial number on the mechanism indicates a mechanism made for an Amberola 3 and the Serial numbers (mechanism and Cabinet) do not match.

Regards,
Mario

Mario,
1A mechanisms were offered in two standard finishes: maroon (for mahogany) and gunmetal (for oak and Circassian Walnut). It would be ideal if you can find a gunmetal 1A mechanism, however there's another option for you...

Your cabinet was also used for the Amberola 1B, so your mechanism isn't necessarily incorrect - - only the data plates. You might substitute a "B" data plate (if you can find one) on the cabinet, and keep the current "III" mechanism, substituting another "B" data plate in place of the one marked "III." The machine will never have matching numbers outside of a miracle; this would at least make the nomenclature consistent on the machine. (The brown mechanism may well have been used on later 1Bs in oak - that would require another bit of research - but I wouldn't be surprised.)

Again, I'd recommend trying to find a gunmetal 1A mechanism, but that's going to be a real challenge. Almost as tough as finding an oak Amberola III cabinet for your brown mechanism. And even if you can manage both, you'll have two Amberolas with non-matching numbers. Getting two "B" data plates might be worth considering... Just a thought.

Good luck!

George P.

[Valecnik]

Mario,

I think George's research project will soon shed alot more light on this topic but I don't think it's as important that all the numbers match on a 1B or III. I have a 1B in mahogany, number 3945. Stamped on the straight edge is 358-B3.

I have an Amberola III "SM1293". Stamped on the straight edge is 1286-B3. Both cabinets have been together with their current works since day one I'm pretty sure and I know of other examples. So in my opinion leaving your current works in the cabinet and finding a "1B Tag" would make the machine appear pretty correct.

The 1As are a different story. As far as I know the numbers should almost always, if not always match.

Perhaps George or others can comment or disagree.

Looking forward to your next installment on the Amberolas George in July I think?

[estott]

George, I don't understand why you'd advise him to put another set of data plates on the machine. As it is the machine is a possible mismatch. If you put another set of data plates on it you're faking it into something it is not and possibly never was.

[phonogfp]

George, I don't understand why you'd advise him to put another set of data plates on the machine. As it is the machine is a possible mismatch. If you put another set of data plates on it you're faking it into something it is not and possibly never was.

I understand your concern, and I share it to a degree. But the alternatives are these:

1) To create TWO mismatched number machines by locating a gunmetal 1A mechanism, plus an oak III cabinet (both highly difficult tasks).

2) To leave a serviceable 1A cabinet in oak, plus a III mechanism sitting around unused in the wake of a $4000 investment.

3) To make the data plates consistent (1B), creating ONE mismatched number machine but which consists of the correct cabinet and mechanism. (This should naturally be disclosed to any future buyer.) This alternative strikes me as tantamount to completing an empty cabinet for a Victrola XX by substituting a motor from a Victrola XVI. The particular components were not originally together, but they are authentic parts from the same period & manufacturer, and identical to the missing components.

(By the way, Frow makes mention of the III mechanisms being painted brown after the introduction of the Concert/Opera as a move toward standardization. I would fully expect to find later 1Bs with brown mechanisms as well, and perhaps Mario would want to make such an inquiry on the various lists/boards.)

Again, I'm not touting alternative #3 as being a "perfect" solution, nor necessarily according to Hoyle. More like "the lesser of three evils!" And I stress that any such pairing should be disclosed to a future buyer.

Hope this clarifies my position. Now what would you do?

George P.

[Valecnik]

I tend to agree with George although sharing the concern about it being misrepresented to a future buyers or researchers as having come from the factory that way. Putting the B SN tag on the machine creates a combination that could have come from the factory that way so you are making it more correct than it is now.
- That cabinet style could have come with a B (or III) mechanism
- It could have been offered with a brown bedplate, (I believe)as a type B machine
- It could have come from the factory with the cabinet number not matching.

Note that even if you change replace the tag, a prospective future purchaser on close examination should be able to see that the machine had been altered. Mounting holes are probably different and the "A" cabinet number is most likely stamped on the wooden crossbar inside the cabinet and/or possibly on the bottom of the top grills.

[gramophoneshane]

George, I don't understand why you'd advise him to put another set of data plates on the machine. As it is the machine is a possible mismatch. If you put another set of data plates on it you're faking it into something it is not and possibly never was.

lol, I was actually thinking the same thing.
I guess when you've got so much money invested in a dud, it's alright to do something the easiest & cheapest way to ensure you get your money back?

If it was me, I'd just accept the fact I made a poor judgement & bad investment, and use the machine "as is" until the correct motor turned up. Then I would sell the wrong motor to recoup what the correct motor cost.

It just seems to me that what we have is an Amberola A1 with the wrong motor.
Change the tags, and you have an Amberola A1 with the wrong motor AND the wrong tags.
Either way, the machine is incorrect, and the ONLY reason I can see to do anything BUT put the correct A1 motor in to the A1 cabinet, is to create the "illusion" that the machine is correct, so it can be sold to some other sucker for more money than before the illusion was created.
Otherwise, why bother?

I really can't understand the second statement George made either-
2) To leave a serviceable 1A cabinet in oak, plus a III mechanism sitting around unused in the wake of a $4000 investment.

Why would either be "sitting unused"?
The machine is complete & very usable is it not?
The only drawback is the inability to play 2 minute cylinders isn't it?

[phonogfp]

Yipes - can I simply rescind my earlier posts?

It just seems to me that what we have is an Amberola A1 with the wrong motor.

But this is the SECOND Amberola cabinet: used for both the 1A and the 1B!

Change the tags, and you have an Amberola A1 with the wrong motor AND the wrong tags.

No, you have a 1B with mismatched numbers.

I really can't understand the second statement George made either-
2) To leave a serviceable 1A cabinet in oak, plus a III mechanism sitting around unused in the wake of a $4000 investment.

Why would either be "sitting unused"?

If you're a stickler for originality and historical accuracy, the machine as it sits presents a problem primarily (and perhaps solely) because of its tags. Had the tags been missing from this machine, Mario would be looking for 1B tags.

The machine is complete & very usable is it not?

Yes - complete and usable, but those tags suggest - as you have stated - that we have a cabinet from one model and the mechanism from another. But simply remove the tags and you suddenly have a specificationally correct Amberola 1B, since it shares its Pooley cabinet with the 1A, and its mechanism with the III.

NEW IDEA: Offer the cabinet for sale. Offer the mechanism for sale. Offer the M Reproducer for sale. Enjoy your free records, record cabinet, and literature!

Oh my, I've caused a lot of trouble. I must learn to use the PM first!

Best to all,
George P.

[mariof]

NEW IDEA: Offer the cabinet for sale. Offer the mechanism for sale. Offer the M Reproducer for sale. Enjoy your free records, record cabinet, and literature!

This is what I did so the cabinet and the works are no longer mine. I did keep the reproducers and the Record Cabinet and the Records etc.... and the person I sold to knows exactly what they've bought, and I don't really have a reminder of that mistake

Mario

[OrthoSean]

Good for you, Mario. Glad to see everything worked out.

Any good cylinders in the lot?

Sean

[phonogfp]

Whew! I'm glad everything worked out for the best!

George P.