Future of the hobby

[hearsedriver]

You may be thinking of a very famous fake in the Henry Ford Museum.

Financial gain is arguably the most obvious reason why someone would go through the trouble of creating a forgery. But sometimes money isn’t the motivation. Sometimes, the goal is simply to show that reproducing a high-quality work can be done — and to put an arrogant art expert in his or her place. This was apparently the case when a Rhode Island man made a very convincing Great Chair that fooled many antiques authorities for several years.

Armand LaMontagne, a self-taught artist, is now known for his hyper-realistic sculptures of famous athletes. But in 1969, LaMontagne reportedly used his woodworking skills to fabricate a throne-like, 17th-century armchair with impressively turned spindles. LaMontagne was careful to pay attention to such details as using green oak that warped when the wood dried out, and wooden pins based on those made in the Colonial era to hold elements of the chair together. He also is said to have used various techniques to “age” the chair, as any wooden object that was to have survived several centuries would need to show heavy wear.

As the story goes, LaMontagne took no money for his Great Chair, but placed it in a house in Maine where he felt it would catch the eye of antiques enthusiasts — and it did. The chair exchanged hands and was eventually sold to the Henry Ford Museum in 1970 for $9,000 as a Brewster Great Chair. The highly prized acquisition was thought to have been built for William Brewster, one of the founders of the Massachusetts Bay Colony. Powerful men of Brewster’s time were the ones who owned “great” chairs, showing off their high status in the community.

The artful prank came to light in 1977 after an article in The Providence Journal highlighted LaMontagne’s deceptive endeavor and described a chair that matched the one in the Henry Ford Museum. The museum investigated and after extensive analysis was performed on the chair, it was concluded that it was, in fact, a modern creation. The Henry Ford Museum decided to make lemonade from lemons. The museum kept the chair and have used it as a teaching object for inquisitive visitors, lending it to other exhibitions that explore the stories behind great fakes.

LINK

The last few times I've been there the fake chair has been on exhibit, with a sign telling the story. Nice to know they are willing to show that they aren't perfect.

Thanks for that story! I had never heard it before. I am a 14th direct descendant of Wm. Brewster.

[krkey1]

So how long till this happens with an Eduardo repro Victor VI cabinet and someone decides to make a fraudulent victor vi

[gramophone-georg]

So how long till this happens with an Eduardo repro Victor VI cabinet and someone decides to make a fraudulent victor vi

How do we know it hasn't happened already? We don't.

Do you feel that Eduardo should be made to stop supplying these cabinets?

[Django]

I don't think that there is any governing body that could or should interfere with Eduardo does. He does not sell anything as a fake. They are reproductions and unless you are attempting to deceive, there is nothing wrong with a reproduction. Without faithful reproductions, we would have no Mayflower in Plymouth and no Flyer 1 at Kitty Hawk. Many fine guitars are nearly exact reproductions of Martins and Gibsons. It's fine as long as there is not an attempt to pass it off as authentic and it does not infringe on intellectual property.

[flashpanblue]

Hello,
The best way to become informed about reproduction parts, horns, cabinets etc. is to educate yourself. There is a fantastic series of books on Antique phonographs by Forum members George Paul and Timothy Fabrizio that have hundreds of close-up pictures showing what machines are supposed to look like. Start attending Phonograph shows, hands on experience is your best education. Look closely at machines and ask questions. If you want to know what a Don Gfell horn looks like ask Don. He has a booth at many of the larger shows. Ask permission to handle some of his horns. There's always a few sellers who have reproduction Edwardo horns you could examine. Stop in at Ron Sitkos booth and see what is offered in the way of smaller reproduction parts. If you want to know what a $10,000 Deluxe Vic 6 Cabinet looks like there is usually at least one for sale the Union show. A book on reproductions ( I do not like the term fakes as it implies deception)sounds like a good idea but I don't think it would sell. The majority of collectors out there are over 60 years old and have 40 plus years experience in buying and selling Phonograph. They know what machines should look like and are well informed as to the many reproduction parts that have been made over the years. Most experienced collector are very willing to share their knowledge, you just have to ask!

[HisMastersVoice]

Hello,
The best way to become informed about reproduction parts, horns, cabinets etc. is to educate yourself. There is a fantastic series of books on Antique phonographs by Forum members George Paul and Timothy Fabrizio that have hundreds of close-up pictures showing what machines are supposed to look like. Start attending Phonograph shows, hands on experience is your best education. Look closely at machines and ask questions. If you want to know what a Don Gfell horn looks like ask Don. He has a booth at many of the larger shows. Ask permission to handle some of his horns. There's always a few sellers who have reproduction Edwardo horns you could examine. Stop in at Ron Sitkos booth and see what is offered in the way of smaller reproduction parts. If you want to know what a $10,000 Deluxe Vic 6 Cabinet looks like there is usually at least one for sale the Union show. A book on reproductions ( I do not like the term fakes as it implies deception)sounds like a good idea but I don't think it would sell. The majority of collectors out there are over 60 years old and have 40 plus years experience in buying and selling Phonograph. They know what machines should look like and are well informed as to the many reproduction parts that have been made over the years. Most experienced collector are very willing to share their knowledge, you just have to ask!

I couldn't have said this any better myself!

[krkey1]

In all of the nine page thread I never once stated Eduardo or Gfell should be stopped from making their cabinets. Nor have I referred to their products as fakes. I do not consider them to be fakes as they are not meant to deceive. They do fill a necessary niche in the collecting community; after all there are only so many original wood horns left and of that original many of them have tremendous problems. The ones in good readily usable condition are very expensive and even then will probably have problems down the road. The reproductions are cheaper, in excellent condition and from what I understand they use a superior glue to the original to keep them together. They look just like the originals.

I have called again and again for a recognition a problem is coming. We are going to be facing a problem where just like furniture collectors products are being that truly are can trick the best. Do we want the hobby to be this way? If no then we need as a hobby to determine we need readily available handbook on reproductions and fakes and how to tell before this gets out of hand. Just because a lot of people in this hobby are old timers it doesn't mean we all are.

So many in here are kinda taking the stance of screw the other collectors, we know what we are doing. If they get tricked it is their own fault for not knowing the questions to ask or not having consulted us. This attitude is incredibly short sided to say the least.

This is why I am saying let's try to get the leadership of the phonograph on board with making information readily available about reproduction parts. I cannot imagine any reason to oppose this unless we got some collectors wanting to pass off some reproduction parts as original.

[Hailey]

Regarding the title of this thread..."Future of the Hobby", and the fabulous discussion that has followed pertaining to fraudulent machines - I believe it is up to us, the tenured hobbyist's in this world of mechanical music, to represent our goods honestly, and truthfully with the ambition always to educate those following in our footsteps.

I find it quite more troubling, even more so than a fraudulent machine, is the fraudulent person who is representing it.

[krkey1]

That is what I am arguing for, seems some people disagree though with the educating the new collectors though.

[Hailey]

That is what I am arguing for, seems some people disagree though with the educating the new collectors though.

This does not surprise me. I have witnessed this in over 35 years of collecting. As long as these individuals have an outlet to "dump" their fakes, or cobbled up machines, it will never change. History has proven that. WE simply have to take away their clientele. Education is the key!