Edison C-19 with Drawers

[phono-farm]

I thought Edison C-250 machines had drawers, and when they switched the model to C-19 they eliminated the drawers and used slats? I've got a C-19 that had slats (someone removed them), and just found another C-19 (serial# SM--75825)that has drawers. Both have numerous problems and were cheap. I bought this one with the drawers just because it had a Dance Reproducer on it, but the spring is broke, some cabinet trim is missing, veneer is bad on back and needs gluing on the sides, and there is no grill. The other one runs but the horn weld is broken and the slat assemblies are missing. So, what's the best option for moving some parts around to make one nice machine? Is the C-19 with drawers something that needs to be kept that way, or could I move the drawers to the better cabinet with the running motor and also switch the horn assemblies? Or, do I move some trim pieces, the grill, and the spring barrel from the nicer cabinet to the drawer machine and reglue the veneer on the drawer machine and not worry about the bad veneer on the back of it?

[phonogfp]

The good news is that your C-19 (on the left) contains the scarce "D-2" type storage drawers which evidently appeared only briefly ca. March 1919. Fran Pratt wrote a definitive 4-part article on the C-250/C-19 Chippendales which appeared in The Antique Phonograph journal from December 2015 through September 2016. Members of the Antique Phonograph Society can access those illustrated articles on the web site. Non-members can access the descriptions of various Chippendale characteristics (including the various types of record storage) here:

https://www.antiquephono.org/edison-c-2 ... -1925-pdf/

The bad news is that if a short-lived feature such as the "D-2" drawers are put into a cabinet whose serial number does not match the known production era of that feature, the historical integrity of the machine is lost. Worse, well-informed collectors can consult these databases and see that the machine is not correct.

Of course, switching data plates might prevent such obvious anachronisms, but there are other things to consider such as type of medallion and governor design.

George P.

[fran604g]

What is the serial number of the unit that had the vertical dividers in the record storage compartment?

If it were me, I'd restore the cabinet with the drawers, using any trim pieces necessary from the other cabinet. It would be impossible to simply place the drawers into the cabinet that had the vertical dividers, as the cabinet side-panels were cut to accept the integral center "shelf" that supported the top drawer -- these shelves are obviously located at differing heights, and there are other more subtle differences, such as: the door latches and locks, and the drawer travel-limit rods, and their respective locations.

A comparison between the 2 machines would place (from a cabinet-type perspective) the one with the drawers as a considerably more scarce example than either the earlier or later Chippendale Upright productions. Whether or not this single feature equates to greater value, depends on one's point of view -- and the expenses related to replacing the veneer, or acquiring the necessary replacement vertical divider components. That is also assuming both machines' cabinets are complete otherwise.

As for the motor plates, I would keep the dataplates for each, respectively.

To maintain historical integrity, the horns can be swapped, provided the "good" horn doesn't have the integral conduit for use with the much earlier Electric Automatic Stop (aka "Duncan" stop), and the horn throat metal finishes are the same (gold plating for the earlier unit). As for the mainsprings, governor, etc., they would be appropriate for either mechanism -- IF they are original to their respective cabinets. The only outwardly notable differences I've observed in mechanism construction, occurred relatively early on (1915-1917) in the production of the C 250/C 19 Chippendale Upright. One notable change was in the motor plate casting appearance itself, as it went from a completely flat surface to one with a circular indentation under the turntable.

I own a relatively early C 250 (#23,481 ca. Sept. 1916) whose mechanism was upgraded -- evidently by the original owner -- with an Edisonic reproducer, and a much later "shock-proof" governor. This governor type was apparently developed for the Long Playing models to improve the accuracy of turntable speed, and better maintain its regulation. It later also appears to have been used with the Schubert model mechanisms, and possibly other models.

Can you provide us with more images, and would you please add your 2 C 19s to my ongoing research survey found at this link: http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... 88#p193988

Best regards,
Fran Pratt

[Valecnik]

I agree with Fran & George. C-19s with drawers are pretty uncommon.

[phono-farm]

Thanks for the information - it's exactly what I needed to know. I'll keep the drawer machine intact and restore it with parts from the other machine. I didn't see the C250/C19 articles in The Phonograph Monthly since I just started getting that last winter, and I don't see them online at the site. Since the series started in 2015 and finished in 2016, it looks like I'd have to pay $70 for 2 sets of back issues, which is more than I paid for the phonograph! I guess I can get by without that. I'll post more photos soon.

[fran604g]

Thanks for the information - it's exactly what I needed to know. I'll keep the drawer machine intact and restore it with parts from the other machine. I didn't see the C250/C19 articles in The Phonograph Monthly since I just started getting that last winter, and I don't see them online at the site. Since the series started in 2015 and finished in 2016, it looks like I'd have to pay $70 for 2 sets of back issues, which is more than I paid for the phonograph! I guess I can get by without that. I'll post more photos soon.

I used the search term "Chippendale" using the "Advanced" tab, under the "Articles" tab at the site (while signed in, of course), and found all 4 parts of my series. They will show up among the many other "hits" displayed after the search is performed. They will be these 4 phrases: TAP-2015-12 (Part I); TAP-2016-03 (Part II); TAP-2016-06_REDACTED (Part III); and TAP-2016-09-REDACTED (Part IV).

I hope this helps.

Best,
Fran

[phonogfp]

Thanks for the information - it's exactly what I needed to know. I'll keep the drawer machine intact and restore it with parts from the other machine. I didn't see the C250/C19 articles in The Phonograph Monthly since I just started getting that last winter, and I don't see them online at the site. Since the series started in 2015 and finished in 2016, it looks like I'd have to pay $70 for 2 sets of back issues, which is more than I paid for the phonograph! I guess I can get by without that. I'll post more photos soon.

If you're not an APS member, you can join for only $30 (in the U.S.). Membership gives you access to ALL back issues of The Antique Phonograph (the Antique Phonograph Monthly has not been published for 20 years). There are also nearly 20,000 pages of other documents members can access. You can join here:

https://www.antiquephono.org/join-us-home/

George P.

[phono-farm]

Fran, Thanks for telling me how to find the articles. I just finished reading all 4 parts and found them all very interesting. I've had quite a few C-250 and C-19's over the years, since my first one that I had to sell while trying to put together a down-payment on my first house back in 1983, but I don't think any were of any special interest like this transitional model. The article also told me what you might want photos of - particularly the drawers and the Laboratory Model emblem. I'll upload more photos in the next couple days and add these to your serial number database.

As a relatively new APS member, up until tonight I was very disappointed in the amount of information available on the APS website, because apparently most of the information is hidden unless you type in search parameters and search for it. I had looked all over the site and found a limited number of links to articles, and thought that was all there was. I clicked 'Shop' and then 'Magazine Back Issues', and at the bottom of that page 'Subject Index to Back Issues 2004-Present', and saw all the articles I could read if I paid for back issues, along with the cost of those issues. Now I see that it does say something about logging in for a more comprehensive search capability across a spectrum of publications including the latest issues of The Antique Phonograph, but the meaning of that wasn't very clear. Having to go to the top bar Menu, click 'Articles' and then click 'Advanced' from a list of 8 choices is totally not intuitive, and then it shows a bunch of text describing how to format a search of articles but doesn't say what articles are being searched. I still don't know if the search engine searches the 2004-Present articles that are indexed on the 'Magazines For Sale' page, or more, or less, but looking at the index shows me a quite a few articles that I'll search for in the upcoming days. I think the menu bar should plainly say "Search Magazine Articles 2004-Present" to make it obvious to people not already familiar with the website, and I hope whoever might read this will realize that I'm just trying to provide some constructive criticism from the perspective of a new user. Thanks for helping me with this! Greg Farmer

[phonogfp]

Greg,

Your comments are much appreciated - and a "Search" function accessed directly from the toolbar is being developed as we speak! You're not the only one who has struggled with this (count me in), so the process is being improved. The present search engine does indeed cover all articles in The Sound Box/The Antique Phonograph from 2004 to the present.

We hope that any APS who has questions or concerns will always feel free to contact the organization to ask for help, make suggestions, or otherwise offer criticism. Thanks for yours!

https://www.antiquephono.org/contact-us/

George P.

[fran604g]

My pleasure to help, Greg. I look forward to more information, thank you in advance.

Best,
Fran