Columbia Horn Metal Necks

[phono-farm]

I bought a Columbia model AK (2nd style, late version) and two horns from the same place and am not sure which horn and metal neck should go with the model AK, or if it makes any difference. The horns are the same size and constructed the same, but one has a gold colored ridge where the bell meets the funnel, and the other is black in that area. The metal necks are interchangeable on the horns, but one is marked 'PATENTED' and the other 'PAT.SEP. 8 '03'.

[Jerry B.]

Others that are more knowledgeable may have a different opinion but I think either horn would be fine. I'd probably take the one in the best condition. You have a dilemma we'd all enjoy. Congratulations!

Jerry B.

[Phonofreak]

Either horn and elbow will be fine. These horns should have the gold stripes, like the first horn shown. I think the second horn either has dirt on the stripes, or worn off. The brass neck is the elbow.
Harvey Kravitz

[Phonofreak]

I forgot to mention this. Columbia came out with the brass elbows around 1903. That explains the patent date. The Columbia front mount client machines came out around 1905.My guess is the client machines used "Patented" stamping on the elbow. I think the branded Columbia front mount machines used the "1903 Patented elbow". This is an educated guess. Therefore, I think your AK should use the 1903 Patented elbow, and the other horn and elbow used for a small client machine like an open works Standard, or a Standard Model X.
Harvey Kravitz

[phono-farm]

Harvey, i think your reasoning is good that the '03 neck would be the earliest. I'll keep that on the better horn and use it with the Columbia AK. Thanks!

[startgroove]

Just a clarification on the patent information. In the early part of the last century, patents were filed according to the date of granting (in later years it was switched to patent number). It would have been unwise for a patent holder to NOT put the date on a product, except they couldn't if the patent had not been granted yet.
At that time, once an application were filed, changes might me submitted or required which would significantly delay the approval process, which could be months or over a year. During that period, a second entity could submit a simpler design and be granted a patent first, thereby allowing an earlier granting date. Naturally, for claims of infringement, the earliest patent date would afford the best protection. The best way to combat that was with secrecy.

At that time, the term "Patented" was sometimes ambiguously used to indicate that a patent had been applied for. Later, the PTO changed that and required a clearer designation, hence "Patent Applied For" or "Patent Pending", became the notices (or warnings) that there may be an approved patent forthcoming. In addition, the term "Patented" then meant that a patent had been granted and was often accompanied by the patent number.

Therefore the earlier of the two horns is probably the one that is marked "Patented".

[Phonofreak]

It is a little murky especially with Columbia machines. The branded Columbia front mounts that I have seen and own have the 1903 patent date. It's not to say the patent date is actually 1903. That is when the brass elbow came out. The front mount client machines that I have seen and own have the Patented on the elbow. Also, on the reproducers, are marked with patent dates. The reproducers on the client machines are unmarked. An interesting note with the reproducers is the 1886 patent date on them. The 1886 patent was used from about 1902-04 or 05, on the Analyzing reproducer. We all know that 1886 is the date for the earliest Graphophone cylinder machines. If anyone has more input, I sure would like to know. This is getting to be an interesting thread.
Harvey Kravitz

Just a clarification on the patent information. In the early part of the last century, patents were filed according to the date of granting (in later years it was switched to patent number). It would have been unwise for a patent holder to NOT put the date on a product, except they couldn't if the patent had not been granted yet.
At that time, once an application were filed, changes might me submitted or required which would significantly delay the approval process, which could be months or over a year. During that period, a second entity could submit a simpler design and be granted a patent first, thereby allowing an earlier granting date. Naturally, for claims of infringement, the earliest patent date would afford the best protection. The best way to combat that was with secrecy.

At that time, the term "Patented" was sometimes ambiguously used to indicate that a patent had been applied for. Later, the PTO changed that and required a clearer designation, hence "Patent Applied For" or "Patent Pending", became the notices (or warnings) that there may be an approved patent forthcoming. In addition, the term "Patented" then meant that a patent had been granted and was often accompanied by the patent number.

Therefore the earlier of the two horns is probably the one that is marked "Patented".