Is it ever OK to hot-rod a machine?

[Django]

There is currently a customized Edison Gem B on ebay. It has received some attention in the Crap-O-Phone section. My question is: Is it ever OK to do this?

If you have a common machine that is not able to be restored in a way that would be considered original, is it OK to go all out custom? Should you display it as found, (see first image)? At least there is no question regarding the authenticity of a Baby Blue Gem with gold plating. Do you attempt to make it as authentic as possible?

The first photo is for example only and is not the Baby Blue Gem. I don't even know if the Blue Gem was in rough shape, but it got me thinking, and that's never a good thing.

I would hate to see a good restoration candidate, or even a decent parts machine re-purposed or customized. But a common and decayed machine on it's way to the scrap yard, I have no problem with. It at least preserves that machine for future restoration, or conversation. The Christmas horn is not with the Gem, but is another example. It sure beats being made into a lamp shade.

I think that the person did a great job and I would own it. I am curious to see what others think.

[HisMastersVoice]

If you were able to turn that rust bucket into the blue & gold one, I’d say go for it!!

[phonogfp]

I have no problem with hot-rodding a machine like that Gem in the top picture. If it gives the hot-rodder practice with acquiring/retaining skills, that's a good thing. And in a case like the baby blue gold-plated Gem, no one should be fooled.

The Tea Tray Company horn is another thing. Decorations like the holly were indeed applied to the bodies of some phonograph horns in the 1905/06 period. But the only company known to have done this was the Standard Metal Manufacturing Company. In another 50 or 100 years, those holly decorations on the Tea Tray horn (beautifully done in a period manner) may fool someone who has enough knowledge to know it was done...but not enough knowledge to know which company did it. In other words, that baby blue Gem is fun, but the beautifully decorated Tea Tray horn might someday bite someone.

Just my opinion...

Happy Thanksgiving, everybody!

George P.

[Jerry B.]

The making of a fantasy or custom machine is a really slippery slope. Once that machine has changed hands the fantasy part is easy to become lost history and the current owner often believes he has a genuine article. I was an observer that had a good friend that owned an Edison Triumph with really poor paint and striping. Instead of an accurate restoration he had it nickel plated. Time passed and he died. His son enjoyed the hobby and expanded the collection. Time passed and he decided to sell some things including the Triumph. He sold it to an enthusiastic novice collector. Time passed and that collector offered it to me at a genuine nickel plated Triumph price. I asked if, by chance, did he purchased the Triumph from Collector X? When he replied in the affirmative, I immediately knew the history of that Triumph. He thought he had a machine worth thousands and, in reality, he had a machine that needed an accurate restoration and very much like the one I currently have in the Trader for $450 (with no takers).

I have a Canadian collector friend that is a fantastic wood worker. He owned a Gem mechanism in need of a cabinet. He decided to make his own Gem base and lid. His reproduction was spot on perfect to the smallest detail. My first impulse was to ask if he would make me a mahogany Gem cabinet. A mahogany Gem was available by special order from the Edison factory. How many were made? What would be the current value of a mahogany Gem? I'd guess the value to be several thousand dollars. I resisted the temptation to build a fake mahogany Gem. I knew that an owner or two later the fact that it was a fantasy machine would be lost to history.

I don't believe that a machine needing attention should be left "as is" because it's only original once. A machine needing an accurate restoration should get exactly that, a quality restoration. I bought a little Columbia BV on my way home from Union last June. Many Columbia machines were sold through large department stores without identifying decals. I thought my BV was one of those machines until I got it home and found minute traces of an original decal. It was a simple decision to clean the case and apply one of Gregg Cline's great decals followed by a finish coat. I'll be the first to tell a potential buyer about the new decals. After that I know that the restoration work will be lost to history.

As knowledgeable collectors we have the obligation to educate ourselves to the best of our ability. This forum is a great place to learn and ask questions. I've collected for over forty years and when considering a major purchase will ask others for their opinions. Also, there are many books on our hobby and the knowledge gained from them is worth much more than the price of the book.

Happy collecting, Jerry Blais

[melvind]

Well, the light blue and gold Gem is definitely not to my taste and I would never own it. The workmanship seems nice enough, but I don't see the point. And, I agree with Jerry's sentiments about restorations that might fool new owners that are less knowledgeable down the road. But, if someone loves the thing it doesn't really hurt anyone. I just personally see it as ugly.

[drh]

Guilty as charged, your honor! I have a Swissie type European open horn machine that I bought off eBay, and the single-spring post-and-plate motor proved to have *barely* enough power to play a single 10" record. Eventually I had a two-spring motor otherwise very similar to the original (both Thorens, if memory serves) put in so that it would play a 12" with some spring to spare. I still have the original motor, and were I to dispose of the machine I'd pass it along to the buyer as well, but the revision makes the thing a practical player instead of an attractive paperweight. I sometimes fit it with a vertical cut reproducer and play my Pathés on it.

My Edison Triumph D has a 10-panel metal cygnet that somebody repainted before I got it--deep cobalt blue, with lillies inside. Just about as totally inauthentic as it can be, but it's beautifully done, and assuming it was a rustbucket before I have no problems with the results, which are striking and fully in keeping with the spirit of the original times, when people went to some lengths to beautify these otherwise rather obtrusive objects. (We today regard them as lovely, evocative period pieces. I understand housewives of the day regarded them as unsightly dustcatchers.) I *do* have issues with what the former owner did to the *rest* of the machine, slapping a heavy coat of "a fly would slip off it" shiny polyurethane on the case without even bothering to remove hardware like the crank hole escutcheon and lid locks. The machine plays well, but from the presentation point of view it's poor.

[epigramophone]

I have only done this once, and then on a machine which was incomplete when I purchased it. I wanted a portable to match my classic 1956 Armstrong Siddeley motor car. I made no attempt to pass the machine off as original. I even wrote an article for the CLPGS magazine explaining how the modification was done.

The modification was easily reversible by anyone wishing to turn the machine back to it's original appearance. All that was needed was a spare blue HMV102 lid transfer plaque. After I sold the car I kept the machine for a while, before selling it to another Armstrong Siddeley owner who knew exactly what he was buying as I had also written an article about it for the owners club magazine.

http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... Bentley%3F

[gramophone-georg]

The making of a fantasy or custom machine is a really slippery slope. Once that machine has changed hands the fantasy part is easy to become lost history and the current owner often believes he has a genuine article. I was an observer that had a good friend that owned an Edison Triumph with really poor paint and striping. Instead of an accurate restoration he had it nickel plated. Time passed and he died. His son enjoyed the hobby and expanded the collection. Time passed and he decided to sell some things including the Triumph. He sold it to an enthusiastic novice collector. Time passed and that collector offered it to me at a genuine nickel plated Triumph price. I asked if, by chance, did he purchased the Triumph from Collector X? When he replied in the affirmative, I immediately knew the history of that Triumph. He thought he had a machine worth thousands and, in reality, he had a machine that needed an accurate restoration and very much like the one I currently have in the Trader for $475 (with no takers).

I have a Canadian collector friend that is a fantastic wood worker. He owned a Gem mechanism in need of a cabinet. He decided to make his own Gem base and lid. His reproduction was spot on perfect to the smallest detail. My first impulse was to ask if he would make me a mahogany Gem cabinet. A mahogany Gem was available by special order from the Edison factory. How many were made? What would be the current value of a mahogany Gem? I'd guess the value to be several thousand dollars. I resisted the temptation to build a fake mahogany Gem. I knew that an owner or two later the fact that it was a fantasy machine would be lost to history.

I don't believe that a machine needing attention should be left "as is" because it's only original once. A machine needing an accurate restoration should get exactly that, a quality restoration. I bought a little Columbia BV on my way home from Union last June. Many Columbia machines were sold through large department stores without identifying decals. I thought my BV was one of those machines until I got it home and found minute traces of an original decal. It was a simple decision to clean the case and apply one of Gregg Cline's great decals followed by a finish coat. I'll be the first to tell a potential buyer about the new decals. After that I know that the restoration work will be lost to history.

As knowledgeable collectors we have the obligation to educate ourselves to the best of our ability. This forum is a great place to learn and ask questions. I've collected for over forty years and when considering a major purchase will ask others for their opinions. Also, there are many books on our hobby and the knowledge gained from them is worth much more than the price of the book.

Happy collecting, Jerry Blais

To me, though, what you're describing with the nickle plated Triumph and the mahogany Gem is one thing, where a total "hot rod" customization is quite another. In the instances you mention it's basically counterfeiting a known valuable machine where a total custom is a total custom.

I'm still working with a craftsman friend of mine on possibly reproducing some rare cabinets to look like original, but there will be a burned- in brand inside.

[gramophone-georg]

BTW, that Triumph of yours is quite the deal Jerry... it's *almost* making me re-think my decision to get out of cylinders again... can't believe it didn't get snapped up in the first 5 minutes.

Maybe I should hot rod it for ya. A turbo for cylinder shaving might just be the ticket. Hot pink bedplate with black oxide plating? Green bedplate with yellow zinc plating for a Ducks tailgate machine?

Scratch that; nobody needs to be ill on Thanksgiving...

[edisonclassm]

If you own it, it is yours to do as you wish. You need no ones approval. Saving a wreck from the junkpile any way you do it is better than throwing it away.