Should I play modern 78s?

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oldstuff
Victor Jr
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Should I play modern 78s?

Post by oldstuff »

I remember reading somewhere that the high recording levels on modern 78s are bad for the sound boxes on gramophones. So, is it true? Is it for for all types of sound boxes (mica vs aluminium or whatever)

Also, just thinking of the mechanics of how the needle works through a pivot onto the diaphragm, would it help to just put the needle in far enough to hold it in the screw. The thinking being the extra length will reduce the amount the diaphragm will be moved by the groove.

Phototone
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Re: Should I play modern 78s?

Post by Phototone »

oldstuff wrote:I remember reading somewhere that the high recording levels on modern 78s are bad for the sound boxes on gramophones. So, is it true? Is it for for all types of sound boxes (mica vs aluminium or whatever)

Also, just thinking of the mechanics of how the needle works through a pivot onto the diaphragm, would it help to just put the needle in far enough to hold it in the screw. The thinking being the extra length will reduce the amount the diaphragm will be moved by the groove.
It's not so much that the higher modulation will damage the reproducer (sound box), but rather the sound box will damage late model 78's, since they are made of softer material not intended to be used with heavy soundboxes of the 1920's.

oldstuff
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Re: Should I play modern 78s?

Post by oldstuff »

Phototone wrote: It's not so much that the higher modulation will damage the reproducer (sound box), but rather the sound box will damage late model 78's, since they are made of softer material not intended to be used with heavy soundboxes of the 1920's.
I see. I can certainly hear it struggle. I am ordering some soft tone needles and hope that will help too.

I have lots of the 'proper' older gramophone records anyway, and they sound great. I was just curious about the newer ones.

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Torjazzer
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Re: Should I play modern 78s?

Post by Torjazzer »

Here is a quick question that should solve your queries rather quickly:
Would the manufacturers of gramophones of the early 1900s conceive of the technologies to come in the next 50 years?
The answer would be a resounding 'No'.

Play your records in accordance with the era during which they were made.

OrthoFan
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Re: Should I play modern 78s?

Post by OrthoFan »

I guess by "modern" you mean the late-production 78s that came out in the mid-to-later 1950s. As noted, you have to be careful because some were pressed in vinyl and these should never be played on an acoustic gramophone equipped with a steel needle. The grooves of the earlier 78s, produced during the era of the wind-up gramophone, up until about the mid-1930s, were more abrasive, so that the needle's tip was ground to conform to the their shape.

If you still want to try it, rather than playing a later production 78 with a soft tone steel needle, a better option would be a fiber or bamboo needle. This assumes the sound box, itself, has been overhauled with fresh, soft gaskets, the needle bar carefully adjusted for maximum compliance, and the back flange, or throat connector replaced if it has hardened.

As for late production 78s damaging the reproducer's diaphragm, I've never heard of that. Dropping the sound box onto a record would probably do it, as would playing a record with a major crack or chip.

There are a number of online primers about playing 78s, including -- http://www.victor-victrola.com/Records.htm

OrthoFan

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Torjazzer
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Re: Should I play modern 78s?

Post by Torjazzer »

OrthoFan wrote:
This assumes the sound box, itself, has been overhauled with fresh, soft gaskets, the needle bar carefully adjusted for maximum compliance, and the back flange, or throat connector replaced if it has hardened.

OrthoFan
Even when serviced to optimum performance, would an Exhibition reproducer allow for the appropriate amount of needle travel demanded of an electrically-produced disc?

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Re: Should I play modern 78s?

Post by OrthoFan »

Torjazzer wrote:
OrthoFan wrote:
This assumes the sound box, itself, has been overhauled with fresh, soft gaskets, the needle bar carefully adjusted for maximum compliance, and the back flange, or throat connector replaced if it has hardened.

OrthoFan
Even when serviced to optimum performance, would an Exhibition reproducer allow for the appropriate amount of needle travel demanded of an electrically-produced disc?
I've played many electrically recorded records on my Vic. V which uses an Exhibition sound box. Some, dozens of times, with no damage that I can see or hear. (I got into the habit decades ago, after a record plays, to check the needle's tip for black dust, which is a sure sign that damage is done.)

I've never read or heard that the pre-Orthophonic Victor sound boxes would have problems tracking or would damage (early) electrically recorded records--only that they would not play them to their potential. Along that line, it's interesting to note that the Exhibition sound box was still sold with the smallest table top, the Victrolita -- http://www.victor-victrola.com/1-1.htm -- during the era of electrically recorded records.

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Torjazzer
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Re: Should I play modern 78s?

Post by Torjazzer »

Interesting.
I think a fair compromise between the Exhibition and the true Orthophonic boxes was the No. 4: much lighter with larger diaphragm. Yet, I would still be worried about needle travel.

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Re: Should I play modern 78s?

Post by OrthoFan »

Torjazzer wrote:Interesting.
I think a fair compromise between the Exhibition and the true Orthophonic boxes was the No. 4: much lighter with larger diaphragm. Yet, I would still be worried about needle travel.
In fact, the No. 4 sound box, in addition to being fitted to the portables, and the table top VV-1-70, was available from Victor (for $5.00, or about $70.00 in today's money!) as an upgrade option for those who didn't what to invest in a new Orthophonic model. Based on the fact that virtually all of the pre-Orthophonic models found today are fitted with their original sound boxes, not many must have "opted." Either that, or the pot metal No. 4s crumbled away years ago.

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Torjazzer
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Re: Should I play modern 78s?

Post by Torjazzer »

The No. 4 is a great reproducer. I have a pot metal in remarkable condition. I use it for acoustics (especially opera) and very early electrics. Playing acoustic opera on an orthophonic machine does not produce good results.

I hope we didn't hijack the thread.

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