The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

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 Post subject: Re: What is this machine, and does the reproducer look right
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:22 pm 
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Victor III
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:01 pm
Posts: 528
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
This is just a confirmation of your BII. This picture shows one with a Grand reproducer, however the Concert Grand was an option. The horn on this one was original to the machine when we acquired it unrestored.

Would love to see yours when you finish the restore. Russie


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IMG_4527.JPG
IMG_4527.JPG [ 993.72 KiB | Viewed 238 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: What is this machine, and does the reproducer look right
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:49 pm 
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Victor Monarch Special
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Who is John Galt?
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:08 pm
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Location: New York's Finger Lakes
Thank you, Epigramophone, for the scan of your 1913 UK catalog. It reminded me of the late 1909-1910 Columbia catalog (which has been widely reproduced) which shows these same horns:
Attachment:
Graph002.jpg
Graph002.jpg [ 73.42 KiB | Viewed 233 times ]


Note the same statement: "It is built up of steam-shaped staves of solid mahogany or quartered oak - - in two layers, all the joints overlapping." Music Master horns were advertised as being solid wood, with all the acoustic advantages supposedly inherent in a solid wood phonograph horn. The Columbia "Symphony" was almost certainly a product of the Wooden Phonograph Horn Company, and the "No.2" certainly was.

Here's another scan from the late 1909-1910 catalog showing the BII offered with a choice of the "No.1" Wood Horn (shown), a "Nickel Horn," the "No.2" Wood Horn, or the Symphony:
Attachment:
Graph001.jpg
Graph001.jpg [ 63.36 KiB | Viewed 233 times ]


All this makes me question whether the smooth horns encountered as original factory equipment with Columbia machines are Music Master. Sheip & Vandegrift (manufacturer of Music Master horns) always marked its horns with a decal. Unless the decal or a black support band (sometimes seen on Music Master horns) is present, I suspect these Columbia Symphony horns are products of the Wooden Phonograph Horn Company.

George P.


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 Post subject: Re: What is this machine, and does the reproducer look right
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:19 pm 
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Victor IV
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:53 pm
Posts: 1213
Location: Michiana
Ah, but they are not!

Every original BNWM that I have owned or examined (and I've owned three and seen several others) was fitted with the solid horn with the black reinforcement, as was the one wood horn equipped BNW.

The 85H which turned up at Stanton's some years ago was also fitted with an oak Music Master horn, as I recall, though that rare machine appears to have been since parted out, for I purchased the cabinet in 2014. Now all I need is a 1912 vintage Columbia electric motor and a correct back bracket.


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 Post subject: Re: What is this machine, and does the reproducer look right
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:49 pm 
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Victor Monarch Special
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Who is John Galt?
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:08 pm
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Location: New York's Finger Lakes
Thank you once again, Uncle!

While the machines you cite comprise a small sample, your experience is wide enough that I give it more credence than I otherwise would (and that Scientific Method might demand). Now I'm wondering if Columbia might have contracted with Sheip & Vandegrift for Music Master horns after those of the Wooden Phonograph Horn Co. became unavailable (?). If so, this would tend to confine the use of Music Master horns to relatively late Columbia external-horn machines.

Of course, a dealer could always supply a Music Master horn for any customer who really wanted one - - like my Victor VI of 25 years ago - - but that would seem to be a rare occurrence.

In any event, the Columbia Symphony horns illustrated in the catalog above lack the black supporting band, and the text makes it clear that they are not solid pieces of wood as employed in the Music Master horns.

George P.


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 Post subject: Re: What is this machine, and does the reproducer look right
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:05 pm 
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Victor III
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Location: Claremont, NH
phonogfp wrote:
Thank you once again, Uncle!

While the machines you cite comprise a small sample, your experience is wide enough that I give it more credence than I otherwise would (and that Scientific Method might demand). Now I'm wondering if Columbia might have contracted with Sheip & Vandegrift for Music Master horns after those of the Wooden Phonograph Horn Co. became unavailable (?). If so, this would tend to confine the use of Music Master horns to relatively late Columbia external-horn machines.

Of course, a dealer could always supply a Music Master horn for any customer who really wanted one - - like my Victor VI of 25 years ago - - but that would seem to be a rare occurrence.

In any event, the Columbia Symphony horns illustrated in the catalog above lack the black supporting band, and the text makes it clear that they are not solid pieces of wood as employed in the Music Master horns.

George P.


You would have been a great detective.


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 Post subject: Re: What is this machine, and does the reproducer look right
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:55 pm 
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Victor Monarch Special
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Who is John Galt?
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:08 pm
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Location: New York's Finger Lakes
Django wrote:

You would have been a great detective.


You meant "defective," right?

George P.


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 Post subject: Re: What is this machine, and does the reproducer look right
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:33 pm 
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Victor III
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phonogfp wrote:
Django wrote:

You would have been a great detective.


You meant "defective," right?

George P.


The P. is for Poirot ;)


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 Post subject: Re: What is this machine, and does the reproducer look right
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:56 pm 
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Victor III
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Location: Claremont, NH
phonogfp wrote:
Django wrote:

You would have been a great detective.


You meant "defective," right?

George P.


Good catch :)


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 Post subject: Re: What is this machine, and does the reproducer look right
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:42 pm 
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Victor Jr
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:24 pm
Posts: 35
Django wrote:
As far as replating goes, I would try cleaning and polishing first. If it looks presentable, leave it. If not, have it plated. I would rather have original playing that is less than perfect than plated parts that look out of place. In the end it is a matter preference.


Well, I tried polishing the elbow, and, as expected, quickly got down to brass. Curiously, I don't believe the back bracket is brass because, unlike the tone arm and elbow, it is magnetic. Maybe it's steel?

Were these all definitely nickel-plated to begin with?


Attachments:
BII elbow.jpg
BII elbow.jpg [ 2.26 MiB | Viewed 82 times ]
BII tone arm.jpg
BII tone arm.jpg [ 2.11 MiB | Viewed 82 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: What is this machine, and does the reproducer look right
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:08 pm 
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Victor V
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:08 pm
Posts: 2123
Location: Harrison Township, MI
The back bracket is cast iron.


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