Note to All Antique Phonograph Society Members

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Phonofreak
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Re: Note to All Antique Phonograph Society Members

Post by Phonofreak »

Finally got mine today 20 MAR 18. Always great information and articles. One point that was disappointing(at least to me) was the editorial on page 3. I read this journal,listen to my records, and work on my phonographs. That is my escape from politics. I am not interested in having political correctness shoved down my throat. I won't go into anymore detail. In the future, lets leave the politics and political correctness out of the journal. That way the hobby will still be fun and enjoyable. Other than that, keep up the great articles and information.
Harvey Kravitz

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PeterF
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Re: Note to All Antique Phonograph Society Members

Post by PeterF »

I was in the room. Were you?

The term "political correctness" has become a racist dogwhistle. I hope that's not your intent.

The incident was offensive, and John did a great job of explaining it in a fair way. This is not politics, it's just being fair. As our hobby ages out and the membership of the society dwindles, the last thing we need is to alienate current or potential new members through insensitivity or wrongheadedness.

Thanks.

Phonofreak
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Re: Note to All Antique Phonograph Society Members

Post by Phonofreak »

Nope, Wasn't there. I read the editorial, when I got my issue today. My intent is not sugar coating history. That is what political correctness does. History should be shown in it's original form, and not whitewashed. Otherwise history will repeat itself, and we will be no better than before.
Harvey Kravitz
PeterF wrote:I was in the room. Were you?

The term "political correctness" has become a racist dogwhistle. I hope that's not your intent.

The incident was offensive, and John did a great job of explaining it in a fair way. This is not politics, it's just being fair. As our hobby ages out and the membership of the society dwindles, the last thing we need is to alienate current or potential new members through insensitivity or wrongheadedness.

Thanks.

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rgordon939
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Re: Note to All Antique Phonograph Society Members

Post by rgordon939 »

Got mine today in Linden NJ 03/ 20/2018.

Rich Gordon

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PeterF
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Re: Note to All Antique Phonograph Society Members

Post by PeterF »

Harvey: this is in no way an attempt to white wash or otherwise obscure the historical aspect of the event. Perhaps you might want to get a view of the presentation when the DVD is available, and then you’ll see exactly what John meant.

Phonofreak
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Re: Note to All Antique Phonograph Society Members

Post by Phonofreak »

I found the video on you-tube and posted it on the music section. I watched it from the historical standpoint. I looked at it as the times back then. That's why information like this needs to be shown in it's entirety. Then the individual can decide for themselves. But to ban or whitewash, sugarcoat or whatever is downright censorship, and that's just as bad. I don't need to buy the censored DVD. I watched it for free on you-tube.
Harvey Kravitz

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PeterF
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Re: Note to All Antique Phonograph Society Members

Post by PeterF »

Glad to hear that you found it and watched the entire thing, Harvey.

Impressed you were able to sit through it as well, because besides being thoughtlessly racist and just plain dumb/boring/unentertaining, it was excruciatingly overlong. The folks in the room got mighty fidgety - for all of those reasons - and the sighs got louder and more frequent, peppered with a few snores, as it was after dinner and in a darkened room.

We were stuck, because the results of the silent auction were to be announced after the presentation.

When I finally got up to use the restroom, because I really needed to, I walked out to the hallway to find over a dozen folks hanging out...waiting for the thing to end...and they all laughed because we were all in the same predicament.

The guy who did it really meant well. The purpose of the presentation was to demonstrate restoration and preservation stuff, not to entertain or inform or share some convoluted version of "history" by showing a complete movie, but somehow that got lost.

It's why book authors and moviemakers have editors, to help keep things focused. Part of John's remarks address this aspect, too.

I can guarantee that but for the auction, the room would have been close to empty before the thing ended. Whether it was from boredom or fatigue, or yes, aversion to the extended racist content - the audience was unpleased.

I don't know the guy, but I know he's a decent fellow and was certainly not trying to advance any subliminal agenda. We hung on out of courtesy and respect for his efforts, and nobody hissed or made a scene. After it was over everyone went home undamaged, some to collections free of such material and others, perhaps, with houses full of it.

But John said what needed to be said. When it's left unsaid, when context is not provided, it sets up the exact situation you mentioned earlier ("Otherwise history will repeat itself, and we will be no better than before").

This topic pops up pretty frequently in our hobby, even more in recent years as we continue to mature as a society. And as such, it's probably a valid topic on this forum, especially in the sense of how it can limit new membership. If I'm wrong, that's cool too. This particular group often seems to skew older and conservative, so I know I've painted a bull's eye on my back, but silence is worse.

Thanks again.

Phonofreak
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Re: Note to All Antique Phonograph Society Members

Post by Phonofreak »

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot??? I'm so glad you gave me the whole itinerary of what happened. As I said before, I watched this in an unobjected view of history. What I have to say about your long piece is not worth saying on this public Forum.
Harvey Kravitz

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Re: Note to All Antique Phonograph Society Members

Post by phonogfp »

Peter, you're right in that no one was being deliberately provocative - - history was simply being presented. I thought the program was quite interesting, but some editing of some of the films/sound would have kept things moving along better. Watching and listening to Caruso and other opera stars warbling what sounded like the same chorus repeatedly in a film went a bit too long for me. A minute or two would have been better, but others might disagree. I wasn't surprised a bit with the content of Al Jolson's film. After all, it's Al Jolson in the mid-1920s...what could be expected?

Still, I'm reminded of an incident that occurred about 25 years ago, shortly after I had chaired a meeting at work. It came to my attention that a woman who had attended the meeting was complaining to another administrator about my conduct at that meeting. The details given to me were vague, but I immediately contacted the woman and told her, "Whatever I said at the meeting was not intended to offend you, but since I did, please accept my apology." She graciously accepted. Then I asked her to do me the favor of telling me what it was I said that had been offensive. She claimed I had told a joke about a woman popping out of a cake. Needless to say, I never told ANY joke at the meeting, and certainly nothing about a woman popping out of a cake. Nevertheless, after stating to her that I had no recollection of any such joke, I said, "My apology still stands." It wasn't about me.

I should point out that the "editorial" in The Antique Phonograph was no such thing, but rather a Letter to the Editor. It reflected the concerns of John Levin personally. John explains the situation in which he found himself best in an email he wrote recently in response to a member's query:

"I appreciate your taking the time to send your thoughts.

"I entirely agree with you about whitewashing the past and censoring. Moreover, as a collector of early cylinders, I am quite accustomed to and accepting of the racism found on some of these recordings.

"However, as the person responsible for APS presentations, I need to put on a different hat and be sensitive to the concerns of APS’ audience. That means that material at odds with contemporary standards needs to be presented in a contemporary context.

"Marc Friend showed Plantation Act purely as an example of technical achievement, not entertainment. Demonstrating that did not require screening the entire film, and a short mention of its offensive content prior to the film would have sufficed.

"As an organization seeking the broadest involvement of music and machine collectors, we need to respect everyone’s sensitivities. This is not always easy when others’ attitudes differ from our own. But we can’t ignore them either. For example, the UCSB Cylinder Audio Archive has a specific disclaimer on their website about “dialect recordings.” That’s the sort of thing we should have done, and I hope do a better job in this regard in the future.

"Again, thanks for writing.

"Best,
John


I hope this lays to rest any further concerns on this matter. There were good intentions all around.

Best to all,
George P.

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Re: Note to All Antique Phonograph Society Members

Post by Curt A »

The "racist" card is a very overused one... No one needs to be told that they fall into that category because of listening to Al Jolson or Golden & Hughes... If you hate that type of music, don't buy it or play it, simple as that...

I seriously doubt that anyone on this forum qualifies as a "racist" by definition, unless he/she is a card carrying KKK member or a skinhead. Owning the record "Daddy Swiped The Last Clean Sheet and Joined The Ku Klux Klan" also, does not qualify a collector for membership into the "R" club. I knew a very well educated African/American gentleman who avidly collected and enjoyed listening to those types of records and was not offended, because he realized that it was just representative of a time in history that has now passed for the majority of rational thinking human beings...

I was told when I moved to North Carolina that I wouldn't be accepted because they were racist and still fighting the Civil War here and did not like northerners. I am proud to say that my experience with native born southerners has proven that false. The truth is that Michigan, where I grew up, is still much more racist than the south - except for the few ignorant, toothless white supremacist types that also exist everywhere else in the country...

While some records may have objectionable historical content, the same may be said for current "popular" ethnic artists who use the same objectionable terms to describe themselves, or worse yet, women in general. Yet, I do not hear the same condemnation of these "artists" and their usage of inappropriate terms and language. All I do hear, is that they have the "right" to use any derogatory words they choose, since they are incapable of being racist... They are, however guilty of putting those terms out there for younger generations to hear and use. How is that for hypocrisy... :? :shock:

Racists are racists... no matter what color, sex or ethnicity... it's in their souls and part of their demented personalities... :evil:
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