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 Post subject: Re: Victor Changer Type 1 Pot Metal Replacement Parts & Gear
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:18 pm 
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Victor II
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Location: Florida
Well folks,

On one hand there has been a major down turn in my efforts of making these replacement parts, but on the other hand, we all may be better off in where things can go instead. Today I got notice from the foundry that they give up on their wanting to be involved in this project. They have invested quite a bit of time from a number of their employees and they have concerns about the precision that's involved in getting the wood pattern exactly right and the consistency that is required in the final product. The type of aluminum parts they make essentially are, and are for non-technical items and this pushes the foundry past their limits. Today, they gave me back my 50% deposit for the pattern ($1400) and all of my original VE 10-50 parts.

The good news is that Abe, TMF member Need4Art, and I have been in conversation since nearly the beginning of the posting of this topic on TMF about his efforts of 3D reproduction of these pot-metal parts. Over this time period I had been gaining more appreciation of the exactness of a 3D product at the same time he has appreciated the much lower cost that I was able to find to have these parts cast from a sand casting. The best of both worlds would be to use the 3D printer to make the pattern and then cast these parts the old school way.

Abe at this point can have the parts cast in ABS and in a carbon fiber product. The company he is working with is only a couple weeks away from having their new metal printer set up to print these parts in metal. Note that there was some and may need to be more tweaking needed on the computer files of these images to address issues that are related to the fact that those files were created from the original pot-metal parts in which there was undoubtedly some level of swelling. He is going to have a set in ABS printed and sent to me for two reasons, in the coming weeks. One is so I can test them out on my test jigs and in my machines and give Abe feedback on functionality. The second reason is so I can then take those ABS parts in to the foundry to further discuss the details of exactly where each of those parts could be printed in two halves to be placed on each side of the pattern board and exactly what areas need to be increased and by how much to deal with the shrinkage. This is where this foundry is going anyway and they know it. Their wood pattern maker is an 84 year old Chinese man who is only working 3 days a week and is about ready to retire. He's actually leaving and going to China for the next couple weeks (perhaps to line up those retirement plans).

Maybe there will be aluminum castings available at some point or maybe just the 3D product available in ABS, carbon fiber, or metal. The goal in not letting go of the casting possibility is to hopefully provide a metal product at a ABS price. Certainly the preciseness of a metal 3D printed end product is highly desirable but since I have have seven VE 10-50s, three VE 9-55s, and three VE 10-70s, I am very motivated to take this casting endeavor to another level. The foundry has indicated that they will have further discussions with me on this possibility.

I will certainly keep you updated on our progress.

-Wayne


Last edited by Victrola-Monkey on Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Victor Changer Type 1 Pot Metal Replacement Parts & Gear
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:39 pm 
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Victor IV
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Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:38 pm
Posts: 1071
Location: Plover, WI
Sorry to hear about the delay. But, I truly believe your perseverance will get you to complete this project.
Ken


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 Post subject: Re: Victor Changer Type 1 Pot Metal Replacement Parts & Gear
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:45 pm 
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Victor Jr
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Joined: Fri May 18, 2018 7:49 pm
Posts: 24
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Wayne,

Well what a pain for you after all this time and promises by the foundry.

I am wondering about the cost of 3D printing in metal (sintering). That us usual quite expensive. Has Abe ever indicated the cost if in metal? Well or in ABS or carbon fiber for that matter.

Carlton Smith
electrolaman 64
Indianapolis, IN


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 Post subject: Re: Victor Changer Type 1 Pot Metal Replacement Parts & Gear
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:24 am 
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Victor III
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:07 pm
Posts: 924
So sorry to hear about the setback, but do keep up the good work. This is truly a worthy project.

Garret


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 Post subject: Re: Victor Changer Type 1 Pot Metal Replacement Parts & Gear
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:44 pm 
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Victor II
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Posts: 341
Location: Florida
Thank you Ken, Carlton, and Garret for your sentiments. We were really really close on coming up with a clean final product but I stopped trying to convince the foundry to stick with it when they additionally expressed great concerns about consistency in the production of large numbers of sets. In the end however I have had trouble getting this out of my head. It’s reminiscent of spending months of trying to make a failing relationship to workout only to have an ex-girlfriend break up with me, even though I can see the need to start all over. None the less, I do have high regard for the foundry and they have expressed the same with me, hence the door is open to a 3D printed pattern possibility. Though they did say I would have to go elsewhere for the drilling and tapping. That is not a problem.

As far as Abe’s costs or his future pricing, I really need to leave those details up to him to discuss. However I can tell you that he has not gotten any manufacturing cost info on the metal product (but should soon).and that the other materials cost per set is in multitudes of the per set cost produced in aluminum by sand casting. (Note that the non-reusable Glue-Sand was used instead of Green-Sand). This is true when the gears are not part of the equation. There are financial savings with 3D printing of the gears since the Boston Gear gears are pricey. Though the per set manufacturing cost is much higher per set for 3D, the initial cost set up for Abe was much less than it was for me to have a wood pattern made up at the foundry. This is due to however, that he has other business relationships that have over lapped with his relationship with the 3D company and that the 3D company is doing a lot for him for free and reduced prices because of their conversations and relationships.

In the end, we all will benefit from the 3D technology and will have sets availability in a variety of materials that will be very reasonably priced.


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 Post subject: Re: Victor Changer Type 1 Pot Metal Replacement Parts & Gear
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:26 pm 
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Victor II
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Location: Florida
I thought it might be good to see if I could make something out of the spare prototype sets from version 1.0 and 2.0 (2 each) that I had requested changes to the foundry for mass production. After spending 3 days of drilling, tapping, milling, and testing, I came up with a completely functional set. I painted and felted them up and am going to reinstall them in a VE 10-50 that I will post in the TMF Yankee Trader section later today, along with pictures and a video. If by chance you want to buy this VE 10-50 and are along the route between FLorida to Ohio to Virginia and back to Florida, I could deliver it within the next 7 days. My girlfriend was already making that trip alone but if someone buys it in the next 24 hours, I would join her and take my van so I could deliver it. Note that the record size selector lever has the set screw on the wrong side, hence it would be visible when installed. This was one of the changes I requested of the foundry. I would be willing to swap it out with one that has it on the proper side in the not so distant future. I will be offering this VE 10-50 at below the market price for a fast sale.


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 Post subject: Re: Victor Changer Type 1 Pot Metal Replacement Parts & Gear
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:16 pm 
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Victor I
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:23 pm
Posts: 126
Location: Navarre, Ohio
Victrola-Monkey wrote:
I thought it might be good to see if I could make something out of the spare prototype sets from version 1.0 and 2.0 (2 each) that I had requested changes to the foundry for mass production. After spending 3 days of drilling, tapping, milling, and testing, I came up with a completely functional set. I painted and felted them up and am going to reinstall them in a VE 10-50 that I will post in the TMF Yankee Trader section later today, along with pictures and a video. If by chance you want to buy this VE 10-50 and are along the route between FLorida to Ohio to Virginia and back to Florida, I could deliver it within the next 7 days. My girlfriend was already making that trip alone but if someone buys it in the next 24 hours, I would join her and take my van so I could deliver it. Note that the record size selector lever has the set screw on the wrong side, hence it would be visible when installed. This was one of the changes I requested of the foundry. I would be willing to swap it out with one that has it on the proper side in the not so distant future. I will be offering this VE 10-50 at below the market price for a fast sale.


These parts look great. I was going to ask you if you had any prototype sets and what you were going to do with them. Would you be willing to machine and finish the other set of your earler parts for my very early 10-50 and sell them to me? Just trying to get more money to you to cover some of your losses. You can PM me with price or e-mail me at: ernestglen@outlook.com
No matter what l still believe in what you are doing and still support your efforts. Thanks! Mark Roberts


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 Post subject: Re: Victor Changer Type 1 Pot Metal Replacement Parts & Gear
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:21 am 
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Victor II
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Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:58 am
Posts: 341
Location: Florida
Mark,

Thanks for your kind words and interest. The other 3 sets of prototypes that I now have, not only require a lot of labor on my part to make functional, but they have drill holes that I'm going to have aluminum welded close and milled smooth, so properly located holes can be drilled. Welding is not a skill nor equipment I have. I am planning to see if the machine shop can weld those holes at a reasonable price. If so and I am successful with the work I would have to do, I wouldn't be able to sell them because the additional rework labor these prototypes require would be too extreme and I rather use them in the VE 10-50s I need to sell. I will need many more sets beyond what I have in prototypes however. So I am very anxious to get a complete set within a couple weeks mailed to me that will be 3D printed in ABS that I can take over to the foundry to see if they can use to make a sand casting pattern board from, so more precise aluminum cast sets could be produced and made available.

-Wayne


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 Post subject: Re: Victor Changer Type 1 Pot Metal Replacement Parts & Gear
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:23 pm 
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Victor I
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:23 pm
Posts: 126
Location: Navarre, Ohio
Victrola-Monkey wrote:
Mark,

Thanks for your kind words and interest. The other 3 sets of prototypes that I now have, not only require a lot of labor on my part to make functional, but they have drill holes that I'm going to have aluminum welded close and milled smooth, so properly located holes can be drilled. Welding is not a skill nor equipment I have. I am planning to see if the machine shop can weld those holes at a reasonable price. If so and I am successful with the work I would have to do, I wouldn't be able to sell them because the additional rework labor these prototypes require would be too extreme and I rather use them in the VE 10-50s I need to sell. I will need many more sets beyond what I have in prototypes however. So I am very anxious to get a complete set within a couple weeks mailed to me that will be 3D printed in ABS that I can take over to the foundry to see if they can use to make a sand casting pattern board from, so more precise aluminum cast sets could be produced and made available.

-Wayne


I understand completely--just wasn't sure how many "Sets" that you actually received from the foundry before they abandoned the first project.

Of course you need to get your machines working first; and many machines you have. You must have a big warehouse or storage facility or work area to house the many and different models of orthophonic changers that you have accumulated. We also know that my 10-50 is going nowhere and how long it has sat in my house silent in the corner. I still have the original parts that I had sand casted years ago in aluminum. Most all of my pot metal parts were in pretty good condition except the gears and the sand castings are nice and smooth. I never found a person to machine them for me; or I would have tried them on my 10-50 years ago. Maybe someone on the Forum has the skills to properly machine my one set of repro parts. They could not cast the gears. I got a set of gears from Charlie Weatherby; but have to dig them out. I don't think he provided 4 gears as I need; just the two that were the same size that go on that "L" shaped casting. If anyone can help me out--give me a Shout! I can provide the original parts with pins and screws, etc. along with the repro parts so that they can be machined properly. If not. I will wait for your next try at getting accurate repro parts. I don't understand the technology of 3D printing; but trust you implicitly and know that you are still on the right track and, again, I applaud you for hanging in there so long when others would have given up. Best! Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Victor Changer Type 1 Pot Metal Replacement Parts & Gear
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:58 pm 
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Victor II
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Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:58 am
Posts: 341
Location: Florida
Mark,

No storage facilities for the machines, they all are within the clean air conditioned living space of my home. That’s one of my rules, no storage anywhere else, not even in the garage.

The Charlie Weatherbee parts didn’t really require any machining. The set I had, had all four gears... 2 big and 1 small gears go on its 1 long and 1 short shaft that are part of the gear assembly base, plus the big partial gear that mounts separately to another short vertical shaft sticking out from the underside of the changer. The gears were initially a bit tight, but with some grease on them and spinning the shafts a bunch, those soft aluminum gears (originally hand machined by C.W) smoothed up and rotated fine. Other than a gear shortage problem, you may have all you need to get your 10-50 going. The gears all are just so the record size selector functions and has nothing to do with the record changing and playing functionality. They can be handled as two separate issues when just trying to get things to play and automatically change records.

If you gather up your C.W. replacement parts, your loose changer, and all your loose parts and take a bunch of pictures of what you got from different angles and sides and then email them to me, I could possibly help guide you in a direction progress.

-Wayne


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