My war of words with a collector on ebay

[Jonsheff]

I sell my restored machines on ebay, etsy and others. My main job for the last 25 years is selling high end restored office furniture like Knoll, Herman Miller, Council Craftsman and others. Most sales are $10,000 and up. After hours I restore Victrolas and clocks that are in bad shape and would otherwise be eventually scrapped. Why am I telling you this? As a lead in to a conversation thru messages with a collector on ebay who didn't agree with the price I had a Victrola 18 listed at on ebay. I really dont know why he cares and felt he had to inform me on the resale value of a restored Victrola even though i have been selling them successfully since 2011 and have had no complaints and only positive feedback from buyers. I dont sell or market to collectors as i know they are only interested in original condition machines. I do sell to people who are interested in history and want to explore all the old music out on 78s that has never been released on any other medium.

I am usually very professional with my sales but this one evolved into a nasty exchange of words:

New message from:
Hi, so how did you set your price of $4,500 here?

My reply:
Hello, Thanks for contacting about the Victrola I have for sale. A Good question, here you go:
Unit value unrestored $2,000
Packing and shipping cost $500
3 Month restoration $2,000
(I just threw these numbers together based on an 18 on etsy right now)

this is not a strip and slap on some minwax polyshades in your garage job (as I have seen on some others), it is wood dye color matched, polished screw and bolt heads, etc. etc. in a fully equipped shop that specializes in these restorations.

there is some flexibility in the price, if you are interested, make an offer. I am sure you are already aware of how rare the model 18 Victrola is.

attached are some pics during restoration,

Jon

New message from:
Jon, so first off I am a collector and have owned many 18’s over the years. Years ago an unrestored, original condition 18 would have obtained $2k. But if you look at recent phonograph auctions like Stantons and Donnely, and even ebay, you will find that they go for $1-1.2k.

Restoring an 18 actually hurts the value. Though a rarer model, they are generally available. So I hate to tell you that 4.5k will likely not happen, esp in this environment. But ya never know, all you need is one buyer. Good luck with the sale!

My reply:
Hello,
First of all, I dont sell to collectors, I am not a collector myself and really dont care what collectors want. I have sold dozens of restored Victrolas so I know there is a market for them. I sold a VV-100 for $2k, the last sale I did was a 16 that sold for 2.5K so you really think you know what you are talking about, but as far as what I do, you dont.

I then blocked this guy on ebay but still got a reply

New message from:
Well of course you don't because collectors would never buy a compromised machine from you at 5x the market price. Us collectors despise guys like you who rape and take advantage of the uninformed buyer and ultimately give the hobby a bad name when those buyers find out they had been had.

I see that you reduced price already. You got a long way to go!!

By now i am starting to feel like this guy is hassling me for no apparent reason and typed up a quick (but nasty) reply

New message to:
I don't care about your old broken down junk phonograph collection. why dont you shove it and just leave me alone,.

Well that's it so far, i am sure he will respond to my last message but i will most likely delete it without opening.

I only hope this guy is on this forum so i can block him here to, i really don't need or want this kind of BS especially after spending 3 months on one of the toughest restores i have done.

[gramophone-georg]

Opinions are like a$$holes... everybody has one, and they all stink. I would not even bother responding and just block this prince. My motto is to only engage if there's a chance of making money- from the outset this guy was obviously an angry time waster.

If you like your machines original then just move on...

[52089]

I used to occasionally contact someone to tell them their price was out of line, or their description was inaccurate. I have long since stopped bothering because more often than not, I had similar encounters.

Some people are unknowingly part of the extended Dunning-Kruger family...

[Jerry B.]

You've been on the Forum long enough to know that most, but not all, phono collectors prefer original machines. But most phono collectors have a different threshold towards refinishing. Those thresholds range from doing absolutely nothing regardless of condition to a recognition of a machine needing attention and providing that attention. You described your VV-XVIII as one that needed a fair amount of attention. Very few here questioned what you done based on your as found description. I suspect the person giving you grief looked at your wonderful finished product and speculated that something that looks that good could not have needed a complete professional restoration.

Jerry Blais

[dzavracky]

”I collect Morgan dollars and have an 1895 that i am sure is worth more than your entire old broken down junk phonograph collection put together. why dont you shove it and just leave me alone,.”

Good response. The guy is definitely an [a-hole] I hope he leaves you alone!

David

[pughphonos]

Hi Jon,

Yes, that's one of the classic fault lines out there in the antique phonograph hobby (original condition partisans vs. restorers). Took me awhile to figure it out through experience.

In one corner your have the "originalists." They are mainly collectors who largely deal in upscale markets and sell to those who can afford marvelous machines in great operating condition, with great pristine appearance, and possessed of great resale value. In their Bible, restoration kills value--regardless of the proven market out there for restored machines (as with your business).

An allied group (but not identical) are what I call the "evolutionists." They too want things kept in original configuration, but not for commercial reasons. Rather, they have a strong archival and scientific interest; they want to document all genus and species. They want to study animals in the wild, not those in a zoo. In our hobby these are the people who create Excel spreadsheets of all known surviving examples so that they can trace and analyze the evolution of phonographs.

The final group are the "historians/recreationists/restorers." We want to bring back an original EXPERIENCE (how did that phonograph look when new in 1912? How did it sound when maximally serviced and upgraded?) I'm in the latter group; you are too, only difference being is that you sell to people like me.

I have a marvelously restored Edison Triumph model C; the cabinet and motor board restorations were done by others, and I did the basic consumer upgrades that Edison's company supported back in the day (different carriage arms, etc.). She's a beauty to see and hear. But a few years ago, in a moment of weakness, I listed it for sale and was contacted by a collector--who immediately turned away when he learned about all its restorations/alterations. His values were different than mine. I'm not interested in keeping "collectibles" -- I want "playables!"

+++++++++++++

All these groups have perspectives that are equally valid. The only problem is that SOME (not ALL) collectors feel they are right and everyone else is wrong. After all, what is value? It's what matters to an individual; there is no ultimate/permanent value in a market.

I'm in your corner.

Mindy

[JerryVan]

=== comment deleted ===

[Raphael]

This is a prime example of the expression “misery loves company”.

Beautiful restorations such as this attract new buyers, some of whom become serious collectors. Jon’s restoration will never bring anything but credit to the hobby.

Raphael

[Jonsheff]

=== comment deleted ===

Yes, i agree my response was in bad taste, didnt really think about my response before sending and was a little cranky when i sent it. I am normally very professional when dealing with sales but this guy pushed the right button. Also, been stripping a beat up Vic16 all day and the fumes even with my respirator are not fun. I also didnt expect the conversation would be made public but decided this forum could use a little drama.

Thanks everyone for the support and responses.

[JerryVan]

=== comment deleted ===

Yes, i agree my response was in bad taste, didnt really think about my response before sending and was a little cranky when i sent it. I am normally very professional when dealing with sales but this guy pushed the right button. Also, been stripping a beat up Vic16 all day and the fumes even with my respirator are not fun. I also didnt expect the conversation would be made public but decided this forum could use a little drama.

Thanks everyone for the support and responses.

We've all had our buttons pushed from time-to-time, which was why I deleted my comment. Thank you for your reply.