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 Post subject: Polly Portable and Pathé Actuelle
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:51 pm 
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Victor V
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Location: NW Indiana B-19;VV-IV; VV-VI;VV-XVI; Edison Home B; Amberola 30; Col. BK; Magnola;
The Polly Portable uses a cone horn and the Pathé Actuelle also uses a cone type horn. Are they using the same basic principal? Are they similar in acoustic performance?


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 Post subject: Re: Polly Portable and Pathé Actuelle
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:18 pm 
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Victor II
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 1:55 pm
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The poly oscillator is a paper cone when assembled. it is about 0.017 inches thick and about 16 ⅜ to 16 ½ inches in diameter flat. It is folded along two radii and is not as stiff as it would be if not folded. I think it sounds best if not folded. I have a friend that has one of the portable Actuelle type machines and I will try to arrange to hear it. My thought is the Actuelle likely has a higher quality sound because it's oscillator is pleated radially which should increase it's second moment of area making it stiffer and acting more like a ridged body (or piston) in the transverse direction as it vibrates.
Allen


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 Post subject: Re: Polly Portable and Pathé Actuelle
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:43 pm 
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Victor IV
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The Actuelle is a far better performer in my opinion. The Poly portable is really more a novelty, but quite a bit better sounding than a camera phone.


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 Post subject: Re: Polly Portable and Pathé Actuelle
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:09 am 
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VTLA
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They use the same principle, much like a Bing Pigmyphone uses the same principle like an early Victor front mount machine. The execution is much cruder, so the sound quality is much different as well.

Andreas


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 Post subject: Re: Polly Portable and Pathé Actuelle
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:23 pm 
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Victor III
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Do they really use the same principle, though? My impression, having not seen a Polly Portable, is that the foldable horn is just that, a horn that amplifies sound transmitted from the reproducer's diaphragm. The Actuelle transmits sound by means of the tension of a rod connected directly from the needle -- there is no diaphragm near the needle -- to the middle of the cone, and the cone vibrates as a reproducer's diaphragm would, though on a larger scale. While the wide end of the cone amplifies sound somewhat, it doesn't seem to do so as directionally as a horn does when broadening sound waves from a reproducer's diaphragm. It's seems to me that the size of the Actuelle's diaphragm is more responsible for the increase in volume than its cone shape is -- much in the way that a smaller drum head will produce a smaller sound than a larger one will -- although the horn-like shape of the cone no doubt plays its part in increasing volume as well.
"Gosh darn a Billiken anyhow."- Uncle Josh Weathersby


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 Post subject: Re: Polly Portable and Pathé Actuelle
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:15 pm 
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Victor II
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The Polly Oscillator and the Acuelle diaphragm both serve like the cone of a speaker. The Polly Oscillator's transverse resistance to act as a drum head which is flat and vibrates in it's fundamental and higher frequencies. The cone shape of the Oscillator stiffens it's it raising it's fundamental etc so that it acts more like a solid body where as the radial folds of the Acuelle stiffen it. both of them act as a large diaphragm therefor they do not need a horn. because the diaphragms of Victor and Edison are so small they do not have a good impedance match to the air in a room and the use of a horn which is an impedance matching device improves the the reproducers diaphragm's action on the surrounding air of a room. The conical shape of the Oscillator serves the same as it does for a speaker cone i.e. to stiffen the item in question.
This may or may not be easy to comprehend but an example is a transmission in a car it acts as a increase the torque of the engine so it can move the car the horn increases the ability of the diaphragm to move a larger diameter sliver of air. The larger the horn and the more it is shaped as an exponential change in area with length the better it performs.
Allen


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 Post subject: Re: Polly Portable and Pathé Actuelle
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:30 am 
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Victor V
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A Ford 1 wrote:
The Polly Oscillator and the Acuelle diaphragm both serve like the cone of a speaker. The Polly Oscillator's transverse resistance to act as a drum head which is flat and vibrates in it's fundamental and higher frequencies. The cone shape of the Oscillator stiffens it's it raising it's fundamental etc so that it acts more like a solid body where as the radial folds of the Acuelle stiffen it. both of them act as a large diaphragm therefor they do not need a horn. because the diaphragms of Victor and Edison are so small they do not have a good impedance match to the air in a room and the use of a horn which is an impedance matching device improves the the reproducers diaphragm's action on the surrounding air of a room. The conical shape of the Oscillator serves the same as it does for a speaker cone i.e. to stiffen the item in question.
This may or may not be easy to comprehend but an example is a transmission in a car it acts as a increase the torque of the engine so it can move the car the horn increases the ability of the diaphragm to move a larger diameter sliver of air. The larger the horn and the more it is shaped as an exponential change in area with length the better it performs.
Allen


'Radial folds' on an Actuelle cone? You must be confusing it with the Lumière diaphragm.

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Polly Portable and Pathé Actuelle
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:55 am 
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Victor III
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 6:18 am
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Lucius1958 wrote:

'Radial folds' on an Actuelle cone? You must be confusing it with the Lumière diaphragm.

Bill

Bill is correct, the Actuelle diaphragm does not have folds, it is flat. In addition, there are several versions of the French Pathé Diffusor, all with flat cone diaphragms - these were connected directly to the needle in the center of the cone, being more similar in principle to the Polly.


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 Post subject: Re: Polly Portable and Pathé Actuelle
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:23 pm 
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VTLA
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Cody K wrote:
Do they really use the same principle, though? My impression, having not seen a Polly Portable, is that the foldable horn is just that, a horn that amplifies sound transmitted from the reproducer's diaphragm. The Actuelle transmits sound by means of the tension of a rod connected directly from the needle -- there is no diaphragm near the needle -- to the middle of the cone, and the cone vibrates as a reproducer's diaphragm would, though on a larger scale....


The Polly does not have a reproducer, the foldable horn is connected directly to the needle holder and acts as the diaphragm. The principle is the same as in the Pathé Actuelle, just not as elegant and sophisticated. Thus my comparison to the similarities between a Bing and a Victor front mount.

Andreas


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 Post subject: Re: Polly Portable and Pathé Actuelle
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:25 pm 
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Victor II
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 1:55 pm
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My apologies for it has been many years ago that I saw what I thought the other day might have been an Actuelle which was as pointed out not and Actuelle. Sill in all cases of large diameter diaphragm machines noted in the posts the motion of the needle activates the large diaphragm which is good impedance match to the air it must move and the horn is an impedance matching device to help the small diameter diaphragm of a reproducer move a larger sliver of air that is more closely related to the size of the room. Small diaphragms reproduce high frequency sound best and large diameter diaphragms reproduce low frequency sound best and if one only has one medium size diaphragm it is a compromise in a radio, phonograph, or TV if it is not complemented by the two former. If the diaphragm is flat it is not as good as a cone or some other approach to stiffen same. I have never designed a speaker and I do not think I could make a good one but the general information about diameters of diaphragms and function of horns are facts of the dynamics of sound or basic physics.
Again my apologies regarding the diaphragm construction of a Actuelle.
Allen
p.s.
A speaker some times incorrectly called a horn is actually a conical diaphragm and a horn is a hollow cone with the apex cut off.


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