Berliner Gramophone No 4 (Victor A style) & Questions

[fran604g]

As it is my wont to help, I quickly measured the repro record nut on my Johnson...er...Victor C #5751 to give an idea of it's dimensions. Hope this can help any. Sorry for the crudeness of my sketch...the felt on the bottom should read 0.0625" (1/16") NOT 0.025" nothing like not being able to read my earlier chicken scratch notes.

EDIT: Also the knurling is 5 lines per ¼ inch (20 l.p.i.). Apparently, I need sleep.

Best,
Fran

[phonogfp]

If you check the bottom of the wooden base, you may find a light blue ink stamp: "MADE IN USA."

George P.

[jamiegramo]

Would it have been made in the States and shipped overseas? Jerry

No machines were ever imported complete from the USA. From the start, and up to 1914, mechanical components were ordered from Eldridge Johnson, for assembly in London, and initially the cases came from cabinet makers in the States, too, but by about 1905 many were being made in Germany and, a bit later, in furniture factories in the UK.

The fact that this machine has a black horn, rather than a nickel one, implies that it is no later than October 1902.

Does the motor have a two or three weight governor..?.

I understood that at least some early trademark models were exported complete from the US. Indeed some were sold here with the National Gramophone co of New York decal. There are variations in horns. But maybe these were all assembled (motor to case) here in London? I know your knowledge is second to none. Indeed your information on the evolution of the trademark brake is very useful for dating!

I did not want Matt to be confused and imagine that a machine that is 'essentially' the same as a Berliner type 4/Victor A had different components, such as the record clamping plate, because it was sold or assembled in Britain. On some machines the differences appear to be just the badging and the horn. I remember a long-standing specialist telling me that apart from the horn the early 'Monarch Senior' is just a re-badged 'Victor Special' wherever the parts were assembled.

[gramophone78]

Matt
If this helps, the record clamp/nut should be the closed top as shown in the UK listing. However, I concur that one is over priced imho.
I think JAS on Ebay offers a nice copy and the thread should be the same. Here is a pic of an original (see attached).

You may want to search my thread on record nuts.

I am of the opinion your machine would have had the early type Gramophone Co. transfer I posted earlier.
This however, is purely a guess on my part as I can see no remaining print on the transfer. So, the G&T transfer may also be correct.

A Gramophone No.4 is found very seldom and therefore I would urge you not to go beyond a light cleaning or alter anything further (including the transfer) as this may affect the overall value...imho. Others may disagree. other than the sound box. I wouldn't even touch the crack in the horn bell.

Regarding sound boxes....you may want to consider a G&T long throat Exhibition as they are easier and cheaper to get...relatively speaking. This could be considered a period "upgrade" which was commonly done on machine's from this era...for obvious reasons. It will also look great on the machine.


Hope this helps.

[mattrx]

Would it have been made in the States and shipped overseas? Jerry

No machines were ever imported complete from the USA. From the start, and up to 1914, mechanical components were ordered from Eldridge Johnson, for assembly in London, and initially the cases came from cabinet makers in the States, too, but by about 1905 many were being made in Germany and, a bit later, in furniture factories in the UK.

The fact that this machine has a black horn, rather than a nickel one, implies that it is no later than October 1902.

Does the motor have a two or three weight governor..?.

The motor has 3 weights. One spring was missing a screw and I made due with a later screw until I can find a better match.

Matt

[mattrx]

If you check the bottom of the wooden base, you may find a light blue ink stamp: "MADE IN USA."

George P.

I checked the bottom of the base this morning and found no markings. No serial number on the spring housing either. Try as I might, I cannot read anything on the transfer either. I did send the dimensions of the transfer to Gregg for comparison, however.

Thank you,

Matt

[jboger]

I would leave everything alone including the decal. Not concerned so much with how the monetary value may be affected but more concerned with keeping its historical integrity intact (imho).

[jamiegramo]

Hi Matt,

I spoke to Christopher Proudfoot today. Great chap, always very helpful over information! The earlier G.C.L. decal is 77mm by 19mm (3x3\4 inches) and the later G&T transfer decal is 90mm by 23mm (3 1/2x15/16 inches). Hopefully this will tell you which design was there and is correct for your machine.

However as said it may be best to leave be. As I said before If you do get a decal I would be tempted to get one without background so you can keep the gold original and always remove the black print if you change your mind.

Jamie

[mattrx]

Jamie,
This one appears to be 23mm by 90mm, so the later G&T, I suppose.
Thank you for the information.
Matt

[poodling around]

I would leave everything alone including the decal. Not concerned so much with how the monetary value may be affected but more concerned with keeping its historical integrity intact (imho).

I agree with this.