Response to True Tone and Edison #6 comments.

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larryh
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Response to True Tone and Edison #6 comments.

Post by larryh »

I welcomed Wyatt and John's latest collaboration on the new Edison #6 diaphragm. Those who know me and have dealt with me know I am devoted to the best possible sound and that includes a rounded full sound. Depth of sound and realism of the instruments. The least possible distortion with maximum clarity. The material used has proven to quite a few people that the foam material is about the closest thing to prefect for Edison diaphragms as they come. I take great pride in all the serious music collectors who have purchased me work and been very pleased by it.

Which brings me to the reason for this response to the new thread of " The best Edison Diamond Disc diaphragm is BACK!!!!. I spent a good deal of time evaluating the sound in detail and found all the claims made for some reason against mine to be unfounded. As a back ground the Legendary Diaphragm its based on lasted about a month in its first go round. It was far too loud and shrill to put it kindly. And not particularly clear. This "Collaboration" has not managed to overcome its issues. Only this go round its weaker in many places, the sound projection is alright but doesn't come close to the realism and forward sound of mine. A raspy overtone is often heard.

When I work on diaphragms which came from very crude early tires, I learned and always listened to the faults and the way in which the secondary instruments came though. I also strove for sound as true to the performance as possible. Its actually how the name came, a good Edison friend highly respected named it for me. A good diaphragm will pick up subtle changes to sounds and in instruments, a poor one sounds something like them but hasn't the presence of sound. From booming Organ records, to Edisons famous Piano sound, and all the rest I made it sure in the end product that those were all heard to the best possible advantage.

I made one video of the selection of "Fedora" by Friedman's Orchestra. Its a mid electric. I don't have many of them an it has a bit of wear toward the end. These comparisons can only come close to how they sound in the room. The cameras even a good one as mine is tend to even out some of the differences.


Edison #6
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZV5KtiQiqo&t=4s

True Tone
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unzcDe6BXaY&t=15s

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MicaMonster
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Re: Response to True Tone and Edison #6 comments.

Post by MicaMonster »

Thank You, Larry, for your evaluation. I am wondering if it is a delamination in the paper stock? Let’s examine it and make sure it is properly up to spec. I will work with you to iron out any issues. Thank You for your continued input.

I have the two videos open in side-by-side windows on my computer, and I am carefully listening to each with high quality earphones. NICE RECORD SELECTION, BY THE WAY!!! :)
-Antique Phonograph Reproducer Restorer-
http://www.EdisonDiamondDisc.com
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Lucius1958
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Re: Response to True Tone and Edison #6 comments.

Post by Lucius1958 »

Even using the crappy internal speaker on my laptop (gotta get the audio port fixed), and with my poor hearing, I think I can detect a tad more distortion in the loud spots with the #6.

I'll have to install my copy on a reproducer that doesn't currently have the True Tone on it, and make my own judgement.

Bill

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MicaMonster
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Re: Response to True Tone and Edison #6 comments.

Post by MicaMonster »

Lucius1958 wrote:Even using the crappy internal speaker on my laptop (gotta get the audio port fixed), and with my poor hearing, I think I can detect a tad more distortion in the loud spots with the #6.

I'll have to install my copy on a reproducer that doesn't currently have the True Tone on it, and make my own judgement.

Bill
Yes, I noticed this too. It is atypical. And I think I have the problem figured out (oh, how I obsess over these things). I asked Larry to return it so I can take it apart and fix the issue...the return it to him for another listen. This is why I sent it to him!
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audiophile102
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Re: Response to True Tone and Edison #6 comments.

Post by audiophile102 »

Once again I want to take this opportunity to thank Larryh for all his hard work researching and building the True Tone diaphragm. It's great that anyone else might try to make an even better diaphragm, but anyone who tries should have Larryh's True Tone diaphragm to use as a benchmark. When I heard the comparison videos produced by Larryh, it was clear to my ears that the True Tone diaphragm is still the best available sound improvement for diamond disk reproducers. I hope that research continues so that collectors will always value their Edison diamond disk machines not only for display, but to listen to great music. If you don't have a True Tone diaphragm for your Edison phonograph, you might want to send Larryh a PM, but each one is hand made and he could stop making new ones which would be tragic.

I made a video with a cheep handheld camera for fun and I posted it on You Tube. I'm adding a link to it here, because the song has a wide range of tones with different horns and clear vocals. While the video camera does a poor job of recording the actual quality of the sound, you can get an idea how the True Tone diaphragm reproduces the music with plenty of volume and free of distortion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VNJ_zHJ3hI
"You can't take the phonographs nor the money with you, but the contentment the phonographs bring may well make your life better, and happier lives make the world a better place."

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MicaMonster
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Re: Response to True Tone and Edison #6 comments.

Post by MicaMonster »

I did hear the distortion in the video, and it is the first incidence I have heard of this raspy sound. I am working with Larry to find out what can be done about it, and we are reviewing the adjustments to the reproducer. So, stand by.

I was up late last night “Edison Style,” obsessing over this, the way I do, and I will be working with Larry to sleuth out what improvements need to be made.

-W
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http://www.EdisonDiamondDisc.com
Taming Orthophonics Daily!

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NEFaurora
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Re: Response to True Tone and Edison #6 comments.

Post by NEFaurora »

Geez, You're right. The True-Tone does sound a lot clearer....but you have to have a good ear.

Both my Edison C-19 and C-150 need New Diaphragms and also a new needles as well. I'll get around to it one of these days..

Thanks for the comparison...!!

:o)

Tony K.

Edison Collector/Restorer

larryh
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Re: Response to True Tone and Edison #6 comments.

Post by larryh »

I want to update the update. Wyatt and I have been discussing together the strong points as well as things that might be a bit better. I agree with the last comment in that it is hard for many people to hear the details of music. Some of us have been cursed with that perhaps.

Wyatt mentioned that the design was untested on electric records so he was hesitant to say wether the results would be the same. Yesterday I went though a lot of acoustic things and still found parts where the sound was noticeably different on the two diaphragms. However, and I must point this out, the clarity of the acoustic records was good, not as heard on the electric Fodora record. Actually in hind site that record didn't do either diaphragm any favors as it as some electric recordings can be is on its own a bit strident. Yes the largeness of tones still leans my way and for some reason the wear in the record transmitted quicker though the #6 than mine. I discussed that with Wyatt and we think perhaps the nature of foam compared to a rather hard surface might slow the transmission of the flaws in the record. After about half way though the Fedora record the #6 seems to present a lot more than the TT the issues with the record. What that actually means I will have to leave to someone who understands more about transmission of sound than I.

This morning I had decided to put up a comparison with an Acoustic popular selection where the playing was clear but not as strong or 'forward" sounding as mine. However in the first test video it was apparent as soon as the video started that electric transmission of a horn simply misses the in person effects. Sitting back from the machine where my camera is located the sounds projected well and with more distinction. But in the video that was difficult at best to hear so I decided against trying to use videos to do any more comparisons. First we have the Camera which is a very good one, but suggest on the settings to leave the input reduced by 10%. Then we have You Tube which also some time back cut the frequency of the videos to save space. That also may play against any exact replica of the sound in the room. I have known for quite a while that the Edison records on my Acousticedison channel are similar to what is heard here but not quite.

Then there is the factor of how sound travels. Way back when the Credenza as one of my favorites a party I knew worked for a small "alternative" radio station that was popular in that era. He had heard the machine and wanted to do a program from it. I told him that I didn't think the sound would come out the same, he argued about it and we went ahead. When the engineers came to make some recordings they found as well that the tapes weren't providing that projection of sound we know mechanical machines provide which makes the music pop out at you in vocals and solo instruments . So the horn plays a big part in how you hear the music in the room. That same effect is not so well demonstrated by electrical, which my friends referred to as "flat". The sounds all basically on the same plain.

Where are we now then? My eyes are getting so that its hard to do the small task easily, and personally though I love to have people enjoy their music I am a bit tired of producing the TT which can be difficult to do. ( I had an order this week to go to Luxembourg and it took three tries to get the exact material for the best sound.) It is no secret that they are made of the yellow chicken trays. I tested all kinds of versions with serial numbers to come up with even a reasonably good sound, or I should say a good sound but still not perfect. Then one day I discovered that a few of the very same lot numbers of trays could cause the already decent sound to really take on a forceful and well balanced sound. And with many changes in design ended up with the True Tone. However that perfect material is hard to spot and so I end up making several sometimes before I hit the right tray again. I would be perfectly happy as I stated at the start of this to find a version that would fill the place of the True Tone. To many the new one may already. To some whom I have heard from something better seems a stretch. An equally good would be great. I think in the near future that is where we will end up. It was suggested and I had already decided to made a series of photos of how the diaphragm was assembled and produced. Thus people who were adventurous could hopefully make a version that suited their needs. That probably will happen. And I will still at times provide someone who needs one with it, but pushing them is probably not in the picture.

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