Are VE electric XVI Victrolas worth buying?

[Django]

I understand it probably looks a lot better in person, as the lights really wash the grain out.

That being said, there is no way in hell I would have refinished that. It looked fine the way it was. A few hours cleaning with GOOP and that would have been in my living room. I can't say the same about the result. HOWEVER, like I said, I'm not your buyer.

Well unfortunately other than collectors, there really isnt much value in the old black finish victrolas in the non-collector market. I picked up that L door for $200 and should get anywhere from $1,500 to $2,000 restored. In the grand scheme of antiques, other than the external horn models and some really rare models, most victrolas in as-is condition go for cheap. I picked up a VV-XVII a month ago in NY for $160. The shellac was so dark, i didnt even realise it was walnut untill i saw it in the light. Unfortunately the general public just doesnt appreciate the old machines, perhaps they just arent old enough yet. There are some same period antique chests, curio cabinets etc that go for 20x a Victrola price. I think people (non collectors) consider Victrolas a novelty more than a high quality antique.

What you are doing is not unique in the world of antiques, and you seem to be at least preserving the machines and taking something that may have been turned into a liquor cabinet and keeping it's function original. Hopefully others will see these beautiful objects and want one too.

Many of us have had a gut reaction and directed our contempt at you, (including myself). You have responded respectfully and you seem open to making a change of clear coat, and I thank you for your understanding. I am glad that you reached out to the group and been willing to converse with us.

If a machine is just short of the dumpster and you bring it back to life, even if not with the authenticity that we may like, the machine lives on and is treasured by someone. I hope that you will switch to a more traditional top coat, but in the end, that is up to you. Please stay in contact with the forum.

[zenith82]

....Down here in the heart of Dixie I think our phonographs fell apart in the humidity years ago.

Being a native Southerner, I've got a couple of theories on that. One is things in the South tended to have a lot longer service life. Appliances, vehicles, phonographs, you name it were continually used until they literally wore out and a lot of them did not see the best of care, largely due to a limited budget. When I first started collecting 78s as a kid, probably two thirds of the ones I saw locally to me were gray in the grooves. Don't get me wrong, I found quite a few rare blues and hillbilly records, but they were almost never better than a V-. If one phonograph needle was used for hundreds of plays, I highly doubt anyone was maintaining the motors like they should.

Another is because when something was deemed surplus, it was often relegated to a barn or a shed that almost always had a dirt floor and nothing was put up on concrete or blocks. I remember seeing many wasted phonograph and radio cabinets in these locations when I was growing up. They were to the point that the whole cabinet was de-laminating and collapsing and there was often a lot of insect damage around the bottoms. I've even seen them stashed in chicken coops.

As far as phonograph brands, the ones I saw most often were Silvertone and Columbia, followed by an array of "off-brands". Victors, Edisons, and Brunswicks didn't show up very often.

[Jonsheff]

I would question why you're interested in dealing in phonographs at all. If you can make more on other pieces of furniture, could you maybe do the collecting community a great favor and leave the phonographs to others? I mean no offense, I just think it's worth considering.

Well, first off, I have played in a working classic rock bands since my first paying gig in 1979. I am also in the furniture business and have been for 25 years. Music and furniture = Victrola!

you did a very nice job on your restoration, it looks great.

[Jonsheff]

Clearcoating it was very interesting. He didn't use a grain-filler, because he didn't have the right kind available. What he did was to put on a coat of fairly thick shellac, the amber Bull's Eye kind from a tin can. Next, he lacquered it with Deft nitrocellulose brushing lacquer. When he got done rubbing it out, it looked like a perfect finish from 100 years ago, and was far more durable than the original finish. I figure if one of the South's premier collectors could take one of the world's rarest Victrolas and finish it this way, it was good enough for anyone. The shellac and nitro materials were right for the period, and he said that sometimes they would alternate the finishes to help fill the grain and make a deep finish.

It is the finest refinish job I ever saw.

By the way, Jonsheff--you guys up north have some amazing machines! Down here in the heart of Dixie I think our phonographs fell apart in the humidity years ago.

I am going to look into the Deft Nitrocellulose brushing lacquer, it sounds like it may be a good alternate finish option for me. Also, I am originally from Central Florida so I know about living in the South. I wasn't always a Yankee. Thanks for the tip.

[Uncle Vanya]

Your customer base is generally ignorant with reasonably high disposable income. These things often go hand-in-hand, luckily for you

I don't really think this community would be terribly useful to you, because it's overwhelmingly unlike your customers. You're not interested in what collectors would consider an appropriate restoration [you posted, "I dont aim for the collector market and really dont care what clear coat is preferred as i know the units i produce come out beautifull" (sic)]. Sounds like you already have your standard refurbishment process down and that's not going to change.

As far as your business, you obviously know that end better than most people here. Personally, I've spent a decade around "antique dealers" and nothing surprises me anymore. A lot of their success, in my opinion, is explained by the Dunning-Kruger effect. I've seen a number of "reputable" sellers offer badly refinished Victrolas online and get very high prices. I recently saw an Oak XVI which was sold as refurbished/restored by a major antique dealer. The doors had been stripped of their veneer, so the front was ash (or whatever the base wood was). What the buyer doesn't know won't hurt them--as long as they stay ignorant (which is pretty likely. By the time they figure out they can't play Led Zeppelin on it, they've already lost interest and have put a plant on top).

All this doesn't bother me much anymore. It's a free country. If anything this topic makes me appreciate my small collection more. I think most people here, like me, view their collection as a mini-museum or art installation, in a way. Knowing the finer things, noticing the details, comparing and contrasting--it's very satisfying.

Your info is very accurate and interesting to know about the missing veneer sale. Since the people I am normally selling to arent really collectors, you may be right about loosing interest. I just hope that if the Victrola ends up in the basement or attic again, it holds up better than it did the first go around. A lot of these especially the common models are in some cases one step away from being tossed out just to get them out of the house. When the finish fails, they really are an eye sore and most people wouldn't want them with their other furniture and into the basement they go. As for my process, I am considering changing my clear coat process and am always looking for a better way. The thing I like the best about restoring Victrolas is discovering the beautiful veneer that has been hiding under a black or otherwise Shellac coat that has gone bad over the years. Here is one I am currently working on, before and after. I am sure there are plenty on this site who prefer the original finish but myself, love the veneer. The finish is actually darker and more like Mahogany than cherry but the camera lights make it look lighter.

side by side.jpg

The original finish on the machine that you posted could easily have been rejuvenated, even to a mirror gloss, by French Polishing. A light wet sanding, using mineral spirits as the lubricant, which knocks the high spots off of the checked original finish, a re-flow with a good varnished brush charged with alcohol, and then a polish to finish.

If you really prefer modern materials, note that lacquer behaves more like the original shellac than does a polymerizing varnish, for both lacquer and shellac are "spirit varnishes". In either case, coloring your finish coat with analine will create an appearance much nearer that of an original when new. Most brown mahogany Victor machines appear to have been finished with a fairly dark Amber shellac over the stain. Red mahogany usually used garnet shellac. A little analine yellow, Van Dyke brown, Negrosine and deep red can go a very long way towards capturing the effect of an original finish even when using modern materials.

The work that you have exhibited here appears to be careful, thorough, and expert. Even so, it appears that you may not have seen one of the rare perfectly preserved original specemines which survive. Had you seen one I suspect that the appearance would inform your excellent work.

[victor 15-1]

Your customer base is generally ignorant with reasonably high disposable income. These things often go hand-in-hand, luckily for you

I don't really think this community would be terribly useful to you, because it's overwhelmingly unlike your customers. You're not interested in what collectors would consider an appropriate restoration [you posted, "I dont aim for the collector market and really dont care what clear coat is preferred as i know the units i produce come out beautifull" (sic)]. Sounds like you already have your standard refurbishment process down and that's not going to change.

As far as your business, you obviously know that end better than most people here. Personally, I've spent a decade around "antique dealers" and nothing surprises me anymore. A lot of their success, in my opinion, is explained by the Dunning-Kruger effect. I've seen a number of "reputable" sellers offer badly refinished Victrolas online and get very high prices. I recently saw an Oak XVI which was sold as refurbished/restored by a major antique dealer. The doors had been stripped of their veneer, so the front was ash (or whatever the base wood was). What the buyer doesn't know won't hurt them--as long as they stay ignorant (which is pretty likely. By the time they figure out they can't play Led Zeppelin on it, they've already lost interest and have put a plant on top).

All this doesn't bother me much anymore. It's a free country. If anything this topic makes me appreciate my small collection more. I think most people here, like me, view their collection as a mini-museum or art installation, in a way. Knowing the finer things, noticing the details, comparing and contrasting--it's very satisfying.

For my two cents on this issue,being a purist as I am is a curse and closes a lot of doors for us that want all the workmanship of the past to be saved.The finish is part of the history of the machine. The materials used and the methods used to build these machines are what in my mind (MY mind) make then national treasures.If you want something new looking then buy a new piece of furniture. I am reminded of an experience when I had a 1917 Harley Davidson. I was asking the person doing the work on it for me about doing this and doing that on it to improve the performance.Finally, after losing his patience with me,the restorer said "look kid (a long time ago) If you want a machine with better performance,then get a newer machine,do not try and "improve" this one into something it never was. That has stayed with me. And please lets get over the hysteria of burning down a house, it is more dangerous to have gas piped into your your house than to use one of these.I have said in the past,old technology is not more dangerous..just that in the past stupid people did not live long.

[Jonsheff]

side by side.jpg

[/quote]

The original finish on the machine that you posted could easily have been rejuvenated, even to a mirror gloss, by French Polishing. A light wet sanding, using mineral spirits as the lubricant, which knocks the high spots off of the checked original finish, a re-flow with a good varnished brush charged with alcohol, and then a polish to finish.

If you really prefer modern materials, note that lacquer behaves more like the original shellac than does a polymerizing varnish, for both lacquer and shellac are "spirit varnishes". In either case, coloring your finish coat with analine will create an appearance much nearer that of an original when new. Most brown mahogany Victor machines appear to have been finished with a fairly dark Amber shellac over the stain. Red mahogany usually used garnet shellac. A little analine yellow, Van Dyke brown, Negrosine and deep red can go a very long way towards capturing the effect of an original finish even when using modern materials.

The work that you have exhibited here appears to be careful, thorough, and expert. Even so, it appears that you may not have seen one of the rare perfectly preserved original specemines which survive. Had you seen one I suspect that the appearance would inform your excellent work.[/quote]

Thanks for the tip,, i have experimented with different stains to try to match the original ubder the lid color. In some cases i do restore under the lid, always preserving the oroginal decal and although the finish on my posted pictures look very light because of the haligen used to photograph, the current color is much closer to mahogany than cherry. I was using old masters rich mahogany but switched to old masters vintage burgundy recently. I have seen restores where the lid doesnt match so i take extra effort to not have that with my work. I have been doing so many mahogany units lately i am looking forward to tne oak and walnut units coming up next.

[Jonsheff]

For my two cents on this issue,being a purist as I am is a curse and closes a lot of doors for us that want all the workmanship of the past to be saved.The finish is part of the history of the machine. The materials used and the methods used to build these machines are what in my mind (MY mind) make then national treasures.If you want something new looking then buy a new piece of furniture. I am reminded of an experience when I had a 1917 Harley Davidson. I was asking the person doing the work on it for me about doing this and doing that on it to improve the performance.Finally, after losing his patience with me,the restorer said "look kid (a long time ago) If you want a machine with better performance,then get a newer machine,do not try and "improve" this one into something it never was. That has stayed with me. And please lets get over the hysteria of burning down a house, it is more dangerous to have gas piped into your your house than to use one of these.I have said in the past,old technology is not more dangerous..just that in the past stupid people did not live long.[/quote]

Well, i am not a purest but do appreciate the beautiful veneers and craftmanship used on the Victrolas. I would never strip and sand one that had been taken care of and still had its original finish and myself do prefer an original finish in good or semi good condition. The restores i am doing are on Victrolas that were not taken care of and not stored properly. I have seen work where the original finish was re-flowed and unless done by someone who specializes in that, it just doesnt look that good to me. There is a point where the finish is so far gone (and veneer problems too) where the only way to make it look presentable again is stripping (in my personal opinion).