Victrola Borgia I questions.

[Mormon S]

I stumbled upon a Victrola Borgia I for quite cheap, and I have a few questions. I know they are somewhat scarce, but what would the market value be for one? Because it has acoustic playback would it be more or less desirable, as a apose to the electeic pickup on the Borgia II? Is the motor electric?

The thing is massive, so it probably wont get it. If someone is interested in it, I can send you the info.

Thanks
Martin

[OrthoFan]

This page provides basic information about the Borgia I -- http://www.victor-victrola.com/Borgia%20I.htm

The main features, as noted, are the radio, and all-acoustic reproduction through the large Orthophonic horn. A special electrically activated driver, fitted with an Orthophonic diaphragm, provided the reproduction for the radio.

The main drawback, as you noted, is the size--about that of two Credenzas standing side by side, and of course, the weight, which is about the same as a very large refrigerator.

As for which has the greater market value, the Borgia I or Borgia II, my guess would be, for the average collector, it would be a toss-up. The Borgia II tonearm, as illustrated on this page -- http://www.victor-victrola.com/Borgia%20II.htm -- is an interesting feature, but it's prone to pot metal issues, based on what I've heard. Also, it adds mass to the tonearm and probably increases record wear somewhat.

Frankly, for either model, I think a person would have to live in a castle staffed with hernia-proof servants. Personally, I'd prefer a simple Credenza or even an 8-12 or 8-4, but then, I live in a small apartment with no servants.

OrthoFan

[Skihawx]

Among the collectors I know a Borgia II would be much more desirable over a Borgia I. Not many are interested in playing an AM radio and the acoustic sound is on par with a Credenza and takes up a lot less space. The horn valve may cause some extra resonances.

I'd be interested in knowing if the radio was converted to AC operation. Seems I remember there were a few Borgia I's made with an electric motor. It was all about the cost. The difference for electronic reproduction was steep in 1926.

[Victrola-Monkey]

As a collector of large phonographs, I find the Borgia One highly desirable. It has a very low production number of only 1595 made, 910 less than the Borgia Two and less than a third of the VE 9-40s made. Having a hand crank motor makes it the classic phonograph (I personally can’t imagine any Borgia Ones that had an electric motor from the factory).

Both the Borgia One and Two have dual pickups on the tone arm (correct me if I am wrong here). Both have radios. The only difference is that the Borgia Two operates on AC versus DC, and uses the big black amplifier, which makes it heavier than the Borgia One.

Both are only 18” wider than a Credenza (49” versus 31”) and I would think many folks really appreciate having in their collection the first Orthophonic radio/phono combination machine built. Certainly it is more space saving than having separate floor model listening units.

The valve issues I have discovered recently, are easily resolvable. Other than dried grease in the valve, the frozen problems are due to the swelled external gears, which are easy Boston Gear Company gear replacements. Though I am currently getting the external big 4.86” flat gear made up to resolve the VE 9-40 immovable valve. I also think it’s pretty sweet to have a loop antenna inside. What’s great about the Borgias’ loop antennas versus the VE 9-40’s, is that there are no pot metal gears or gear arm problems. Those replacements really push up your restoration costs.

Though I do believe these are no machines for apartment dwellings, I feel their weight should be of no concern because I take the position that no floor model phonograph should be moved without using the proper lifting equipment and if it takes more than one person to do it, you are putting somebody’s health in jeopardy.

[PeterF]

There is currently a Borgia II offered on eBay (not mine):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1926-Victor-Le ... 3363337977

Have a close look at it, and see how incredibly cool it is.

The Borgia I, although missing the key feature of allowing both electrical and acoustical playback of records, can easily be brought into line with the Borgia II. You would certainly need the electronics rebuilt, and a competent restorer could add a simple, switched, auxiliary input to the amp. Then one would just add one of the common aftermarket electric tonearm/pickup outfits, like this (also not mine):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/vintage-1930S- ... 1714354460

You would then have a readily switchable capability to do it all. I'll be adding an auxiliary second tonearm like that, with what will be a third pickup, to my 9-40 (successor to the Borgia II). It has the pickup from the Edison C-2, which plays both laterals and diamond discs, so we'll be able to play electrically recorded DDs electrically amplified, and then further amplified through the big ortho horn.

As for size and bulk and weight, yeah it's a beast. Honestly, if you don't have the interest in listening to AM broadcast radio, it may not be the best choice. I am a big baseball fan, so this works for me (at least during half the year). Since the lids open separately, one can use the unopened side as a place for a tabletop machine - and if especially clever, put that machine on felt pads so it can be slid from one side to the other as needed to open the side to which you need access.

If you have room and it's cheap enough, get it. You can enjoy big orthophonic sound and maybe play the radio too, and it will be a pretty unique experience due to the extreme rarity of these beasts.

But yeah, move it only with at least 3 people, and back supports, and flat dollies.

As I keep meaning to do, I'll tell the story separately of how I broke my back last fall, while moving a 9-40 into the house.

[Mormon S]

I am almost reluctant to give it away, as I know it is an easy "flip" as long as i can get it to my garage, but I know how frustrating it is for something to be hidden, so I am deciding share the info. I would rather someone here get a great deal and enjoy having a great machine than me reselling it. Here are some pictures, Pm me for the info. It is in pretty good condition, and even has a Wurlitzer tag on it.

Martin

[Victrola-Monkey]

Hmmm, always had thought the Borgia One had the dual pickup too. I stand corrected.

Sure looks in nice condition. Wonder if the radio is there under that left lid.

[Skihawx]

I am almost reluctant to give it away, as I know it is an easy "flip" as long as i can get it to my garage, but I know how frustrating it is for something to be hidden, so I am deciding share the info. I would rather someone here get a great deal and enjoy having a great machine than me reselling it. Here are some pictures, Pm me for the info. It is in pretty good condition, and even has a Wurlitzer tag on it.

Martin

Looks like the radio has been converted to run off AC power. The switch in front above the record compartment is not factory. They are interesting machines.

[Uncle Vanya]

I am almost reluctant to give it away, as I know it is an easy "flip" as long as i can get it to my garage, but I know how frustrating it is for something to be hidden, so I am deciding share the info. I would rather someone here get a great deal and enjoy having a great machine than me reselling it. Here are some pictures, Pm me for the info. It is in pretty good condition, and even has a Wurlitzer tag on it.

Martin

Looks like the radio has been converted to run off AC power. The switch in front above the record compartment is not factory. They are interesting machines.

Not factory, but dealer.

That switch is for a Philco socket power set, which units were offered as dealer installed accessories on Victor machines. I suspect that the Philco units were chosen because of the proximity of the Philco plant to Camden, and because Philco was the only manufacturer of A and B eiminator packages at the time of the introduction of the Orthophonic Radiola-Phonograph combinations. Whilst the original announcement in August of 1925 covered separate 6 volt A and 90 volt B eliminators, by Victor Day a combination unit which produced 4 volt A and 135 bolt B current was available.



The Philco unit consisted of a box which contained a small 2 cell (4 volt) storage battery, a trickle charger for that battery, a relay which would automatically disconnect the trickle charger and turn on the B supply when the radio was operated, and a really interesting B battery eliminator, which consisted of a little bell-rining transformer wired with it's low voltage winding in series with a light bulb. The high voltage winding fed a bridge rectifier made.of four electrolytic bottles, the output of which was then fed to a π filter which consisted of a couple of 1MFD telephone condensers and the high voltage winding of yet another Bell Ringer, which was used as a choke.

[Uncle Vanya]

The Borgia I, although missing the key feature of allowing both electrical and acoustical playback of records, can easily be brought into line with the Borgia II. You would certainly need the electronics rebuilt, and a competent restorer could add a simple, switched, auxiliary input to the amp. Then one would just add one of the common aftermarket electric tonearm/pickup outfits, like this (also not mine):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/vintage-1930S- ... 1714354460

You would then have a readily switchable capability to do it all. I'll be adding an auxiliary second tonearm like that, with what will be a third pickup, to my 9-40 (successor to the Borgia II). It has the pickup from the Edison C-2, which plays both laterals and diamond discs, so we'll be able to play electrically recorded DDs electrically amplified, and then further amplified through the big ortho horn.

If you plan to use a Borgia I for electrical reproduction of Phonograph records you would be better off to have the radio chassis fitted with the AC package and use a Radio Receptor power supply, which substitutes a beefy 210 output tube for the rather anemic UX-120 used in the battery Radiola 28.