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 Post subject: Re: Victor VI valuation
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 8:45 pm 
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Victor IV
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JohnM wrote:

This is an important point that non-collectors (and many collectors) don’t understand. Your Victor VI was designed to play recordings made during the acoustical era of sound recording. The recording process entailed singing or playing into a horn and the sound pressure vibrates a diaphragm that scribed the sound groove into the wax recording blank. In 1925, electrical recording was introduced, a system that used microphones to ‘hear’ the sound being recorded and electrically-amplified cutting heads to scribe the wax. If one were to compare the grooves of both systems, the electrical groove is more detailed and modulates more widely, resulting in greater realism and volume. Victor introduced a new line of Victrolas (the ‘Orthophonic’ series) that were specifically designed to play electrical recordings. The stamped-aluminum diaphragms are completely different in design and performance from the mica diaphragms of the acoustical era. If you play an electrical recording on an acoustical-era machine, sound will come out of the horn, but, the sound will be more strident and will lack the expanded tonal range that is the entire point of an electrical recording; the mica diaphragm may delaminate as it tries to keep up with the greater signal that is being sent to it from the groove; and the record will wear-out more quickly for the same reason as the groove fights the needle. If early Jazz is your taste, sell the Vic VI and buy a nice Victor Orthophonic ‘Credenza’ and have the reproducer rebuilt so that it performing optimally, roll-up the rugs, and enjoy!

Or keep the Vic VI and find a nice Orthophonic machine too! Isn't that the way we all started out? :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Victor VI valuation
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 9:19 pm 
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Victor Jr
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 1:06 pm
Posts: 19
Hello Victor V,

Thank you for adding clarity. My mistake was mentioning Jazz in context of the Vic VI, without mentioning I also embrace many musical genres, for example, Ragtime. Fortunately, a large box of records comes with the machine. While I have yet to delve into the dusty box, I hope to find at least some period correct records.

Dino


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 Post subject: Re: Victor VI valuation
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 9:21 pm 
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Victor Jr
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 1:06 pm
Posts: 19
phonogal wrote:
JohnM wrote:

This is an important point that non-collectors (and many collectors) don’t understand. Your Victor VI was designed to play recordings made during the acoustical era of sound recording. The recording process entailed singing or playing into a horn and the sound pressure vibrates a diaphragm that scribed the sound groove into the wax recording blank. In 1925, electrical recording was introduced, a system that used microphones to ‘hear’ the sound being recorded and electrically-amplified cutting heads to scribe the wax. If one were to compare the grooves of both systems, the electrical groove is more detailed and modulates more widely, resulting in greater realism and volume. Victor introduced a new line of Victrolas (the ‘Orthophonic’ series) that were specifically designed to play electrical recordings. The stamped-aluminum diaphragms are completely different in design and performance from the mica diaphragms of the acoustical era. If you play an electrical recording on an acoustical-era machine, sound will come out of the horn, but, the sound will be more strident and will lack the expanded tonal range that is the entire point of an electrical recording; the mica diaphragm may delaminate as it tries to keep up with the greater signal that is being sent to it from the groove; and the record will wear-out more quickly for the same reason as the groove fights the needle. If early Jazz is your taste, sell the Vic VI and buy a nice Victor Orthophonic ‘Credenza’ and have the reproducer rebuilt so that it performing optimally, roll-up the rugs, and enjoy!

Or keep the Vic VI and find a nice Orthophonic machine too! Isn't that the way we all started out? :lol:

Exactly what I was thinking! ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Victor VI valuation
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 9:39 pm 
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Victor Jr
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 1:06 pm
Posts: 19
Phono-Phan wrote:
I think Jerry is spot on for a current value if it doesn't need major repairs. It is hard to determine the fine details of the overall condition from the pictures. Will the plating clean up or not?, are the springs broken?, any cracks in the horn?, etc... Overall, it doesn't look that bad and I hope you get it.
Just don't be too aggressive with cleaning and buffing the gold plated parts. The plating is very thin.
Ken

The gold plating appears to be worn-through on the Corinthian column caps and perhaps pitted on the horn taper arm, however, I honestly haven't had a chance to sit down and take a long, careful look at it yet. If the plating doesn't clean-up with ammonia, I will need to find a source to have them refurbished correctly. I hope to post a few better quality images soon.

Thank you!


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 Post subject: Re: Victor VI valuation
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 9:49 pm 
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Victor IV
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 8:20 pm
Posts: 1125
Location: Mid - Michigan
I agree with Jerry's assessment of the machine. It looks like a good example of an unmolested machine which will clean up into a great looking piece which most of us would consider the crown jewel of our collection. Depending on your mechanical abilities, you may be able to perform the necessary mechanical maintenance and/or repair yourself. There are many threads on this site as well as YouTube videos which explain motor and reproducer repair in detail. Also Eric Reiss' book "The Compleat Talking Machine" is a great reference which explains how to repair motors and reproducers using commonly found tools. You will also find a great deal of cabinet cleaning and repair information on this board and in the book. As far as cleaning the gold parts, do not use anything remotely abrasive on it. Use either ammonia as Jerry recommended or ammonia Ted clock cleaning solution which is my first choice.
Now, concerning the issue of playing electrical recordings on this machine. There are many reproducers from 1930s and 40s portables available which were designed to play those records and are either a direct fit to your tonearm or which can easily be adapted to fit. Also, acoustic hot jazz and hot dance records made through 1925 are not difficult to find.
Good luck with the machine and please keep us posted about your progress.

Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Victor VI valuation
PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2019 10:08 pm 
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Victor IV
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 8:20 pm
Posts: 1125
Location: Mid - Michigan
Just a note about the gold plating; the tone arm, reproducer front housing and horn elbow are brass, so you won't have any rust under the plating on those and those should come quite clean. The rest of the parts are Steel and may have some rust showing through. There is nothing you can do about that, although the ammonia will get them as clean as possible. I just took another look at your pictures, and it looks to me like the machine displays well as it is and certainly will look even better after a good cleaning. The close ups always make things look worse than the object does when taken as a whole. By the way: the turntable rim is supposed to be nickel Victor did it that way because if it were gold plated the brake would destroy it in very short order.

Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Victor VI valuation
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 12:43 am 
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Victor VI
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Edison Records - Close your eyes and see if the artist does not actually seem to be before you.
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Jerry B. wrote:
Of the six replies mine is the only one to venture an estimate on value. What do others think? :)

Jerry B.


Based on the few pictures I would agree with your assessment Jerry that ~3,000 is a nice "in the middle" price for both buyer and seller.

Sure you can find a Vic VI, even in much poorer condition in a shop or on ebay for a much higher price but they don't sell or they sit their for years. Asking price is NOT market price in many cases. :monkey:


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 Post subject: Re: Victor VI valuation
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 9:38 am 
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VTLA
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dbwest wrote:
Phono-Phan wrote:
I think Jerry is spot on for a current value if it doesn't need major repairs. It is hard to determine the fine details of the overall condition from the pictures. Will the plating clean up or not?, are the springs broken?, any cracks in the horn?, etc... Overall, it doesn't look that bad and I hope you get it.
Just don't be too aggressive with cleaning and buffing the gold plated parts. The plating is very thin.
Ken

The gold plating appears to be worn-through on the Corinthian column caps and perhaps pitted on the horn taper arm, however, I honestly haven't had a chance to sit down and take a long, careful look at it yet. If the plating doesn't clean-up with ammonia, I will need to find a source to have them refurbished correctly. I hope to post a few better quality images soon.

Thank you!


As others have already stated, your machine looks to be in good unmolested condition. A careful cleanup will make it look fabulous. Don't get pulled into having it restored - even by the best professionals - just because some gold plating is worn through. A machine is only original once and an original machine in good condition will almost always be worth more than a restored machine. With a machine in such nice condition as yours, a restoration of the finish will actually reduce the value of it. Of course you will want to do mechanical repairs and servicing of the motor and reproducer, but that should be it.

Congratulations to such a great find!
Andreas


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 Post subject: Re: Victor VI valuation
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 10:17 am 
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Victor VI
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Edison Records - Close your eyes and see if the artist does not actually seem to be before you.
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:28 pm
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Location: Česká Republika
alang wrote:
dbwest wrote:
Phono-Phan wrote:
I think Jerry is spot on for a current value if it doesn't need major repairs. It is hard to determine the fine details of the overall condition from the pictures. Will the plating clean up or not?, are the springs broken?, any cracks in the horn?, etc... Overall, it doesn't look that bad and I hope you get it.
Just don't be too aggressive with cleaning and buffing the gold plated parts. The plating is very thin.
Ken

The gold plating appears to be worn-through on the Corinthian column caps and perhaps pitted on the horn taper arm, however, I honestly haven't had a chance to sit down and take a long, careful look at it yet. If the plating doesn't clean-up with ammonia, I will need to find a source to have them refurbished correctly. I hope to post a few better quality images soon.

Thank you!


As others have already stated, your machine looks to be in good unmolested condition. A careful cleanup will make it look fabulous. Don't get pulled into having it restored - even by the best professionals - just because some gold plating is worn through. A machine is only original once and an original machine in good condition will almost always be worth more than a restored machine. With a machine in such nice condition as yours, a restoration of the finish will actually reduce the value of it. Of course you will want to do mechanical repairs and servicing of the motor and reproducer, but that should be it.

Congratulations to such a great find!
Andreas


Totally agree with Andreas. Your machine needs nothing more than a careful cleaning. Outside of new gaskets in the reproducer, don't "restore" anything, or replace the felt etcetera. You only decrease the value.


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 Post subject: Re: Victor VI valuation
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 11:01 am 
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Victor III
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Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:23 pm
Posts: 525
Location: Michigan
"The gold plating looks to be worn-through on the Corinthian column caps and perhaps pitted on the horn taper arm, however, I honestly haven't had a chance to sit down and take a long, careful look at it yet. If the plating doesn't clean-up with ammonia, I will need to find a source to have them refurbished correctly. I hope to post a few better quality images soon."


I totally agree with the others, clean the machine and do the mechanical repairs and leave it. Its a great original machine, don't hurt it with unneeded finish restoration.
Caution is needed with the gold finish. It is very thin and can be worn away before you know it. No abrasives and no power buffing. There is a layer of copper under the gold so it can be hard to tell when the gold has worn thru until its to late.

When you're done if you don't like the original look you can sell it and buy one of the many restored machines.

In any case enjoy the machine, the Victor VI is a outstanding first machine.

Just my opinion
Larry Crandell


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