Plastic phonograph needles - Has anybody tried them?

[VanEpsFan1914]

Maybe this will help them who use steel and insist on a polished, perfect point:

other than hunting down premium needles (which we should do anyway) there is a trick to ensure these high-end needles will give good results.

I did find in the original Victrola owner's manuals from the 1910s, and as a "Songster Fine Point" or whatever you call it on a gramophone record sleeve from 1930s England, that one should ensure a polished point before starting the record.

This is going to sound odd: to use new needles, you get the record, put a fresh needle in your soundbox, and crank up your machine like normal. But instead of dropping it bang at the first lead-in groove, ending up with a rough start eventually and a worn-out record, always put the needle in the silent grooves at the end. (Incidentally, if you are using a Victor machine with the Semi-Automatic Brake, manually set the trip lever at this time.) Now wipe the dust off (there will be a ball of black fluff) and play your record.

The surface noise will be halved, and the records will last for a very long time indeed. I bought well-loved Red Seals, pressed from about 1916 to 1924, one time, and they had been played with this trick. The last silent grooves were worn gray with age, but the rest was covered in the iridescent black glimmer of a brand-new Victrola record. Hold them up to your face and see your reflection. Even a high note on a Nellie Melba record that had gone gray from its own high frequency (how did she not crack the diaphragms?) was crystal clear.

Give it a try--your records will thank you and, if you still have an old-model Victrola with the "automatic" brakes, it might actually stop itself on cue!

[Menophanes]

Inigo's posting and russmovaz's comment (about re-pointing steel needles) were a great comfort to me. Some months ago I made the mistake of reporting my own experiment in reviving Songster Pick-Up needles with 1500-grit paper mounted on a BCN sharpener. It was clear from the reaction that this idea was too radical for most people's stomachs, and for some time I thought it would never be safe to mention the subject again. I am glad to know that, at least, I am not the only person foolhardy enough to have tried it.

Oliver Mundy.

[bigshot]

I've never been able to wear out a record. I've tried, but I get tired of the song long before I wear it out. I got a NOS Billy Murray record and transferred it. Then I played it 100 times on a VV-X changing the needle for each play. That was a chore even though I love Billy Murray. When I was done, I re-transferred the record and compared the two. I couldn't discern any wear at all. I have thousands of records. In order to play them 100 times apiece, I'll have to live another few thousand years.

All the worn records in my collection got that way before they came to me. And I suspect they got that way by reusing needles. Records are made to be played.

[Inigo]

Undoubtedly. Worn records usually I've found by experience and a bit of guessing, that come to you from two main sources:
1) not changing the needle after each play, by laziness or the cost of needles or whatever reason... my own father confessed once that they reused the same steel needle at least once more by turning it on the socket, due to the price of steel needles, which seemed expensive for a humble economy. Bad habit! The chisel that appears at the needle point once used can be seen even at nude eye!
2) using a bad tracking angle. With dismay I've seen so many beautiful machines, cheap and expensive, all them with an horrible tracking... This destroys records..
Or both factors simultaneously.
A good tracking tonearm and a fresh steel needle are kind to records, provided they are in good condition and of the proper material.

[russmovaz]

Billy Murray comment: I have a few of his Victor records, but I am afraid to play them after reading bad things about him in the book I am reading: "Jazz Singing."

I will get around to listening to him soon.

On to the main topic. If steel needles can damage records, then can playing the records on an electric "classroom 16/33/45/78" player damage the needle?

I assume that playing 78s on my classroom players will wear out the needle - after a few thousand plays maybe? The good is that these players with the light tone arms and soft needles don't damage the records.

90% of the time, I play a 78 record on one of my classroom players. (Usually I am playing post WWII records on these players. Early 78s I do play on my windup machines.)

[Inigo]

The ceramic cartridges record players using sapphire needles... Be careful with that. Ceramic cartridges are low compliant, and damage records. They need more weight to track 78s without distortion, and this wears the grooves faster. Go for modern magnetic cartridges, a Stanton 500 or 600 at least. These can track a 78 at only 3.5 grams or maybe less. With a ceramic cartridge you'll need 5 grams or more to track properly a highly modulated 78 groove. Ortophon magnetic cartridges track still lighter, at 2 grams, for they are still more compliant. They are softer on records, but a swinger or warped record can be difficult to track with these.
I'm talking about cartridges in the $30-50 price range. There are others much better and more costy... But you'll never go wrong with a Shure SC35C or a Stanton 500.
Sapphire styli (mostly used on ceramic cartridges) are designed to last 100 hours, and this is 2000 sides of 78 records. Keep this mind, for a blunt sapphire stylus will wear the vinyl or shellac grooves.
Use always diamond styli specially made for the 78 grooves. Diamond is harder than sapphire, and the stylus point will remain more time in perfect shape, which is good for the grooves. These styli last for 500 or 600 hours.
Sapphire styli go blunt early, and this will damage grooves. I've noticed a similar wear on heavy grooves of 78s played with old record players (ceramic cart with sapphire stylus) as when using steel needles and acoustic Gramophones.
If you play 78s on a school record player, be sure to use a new stylus, of the proper size. And discard the stylus when it is half-used (50 hours or 1000 sides).
I've suffered from that, fortunately on second copies of loved records, but I've noticed increasing groove noise after a time, and the record wears out pretty fast, especially if it has heavy grooves.
Never forget that shellac records and steel needles were made one for each other, to be played on acoustic Gramophones or electric pickups of the era. The record wears out the steel needle and adapts the point shape to the groove profile in the few first turns. Discard the needle after each play. The point is severely cut in the shape of a chisel, and will destroy a groove if it is used again.
If the music is to shrill, you can use cactus needles or bamboo needles.
For similar reasons I never use multi-playing needles (tungsten, duragold, golden pickup needles and the like). These were designed for the comfort of not having to change the needle after each play, and for automatic phonographs, Juke boxes and the like. But the poor record grooves suffer this... The point is harder and the grooves wear out quicker than when using simple steel needles of good quality.
And records played with those long duration needles always show signs of wear.