Need Help With My First Edison Cylinder Machine

[gramophoneshane]

Yes, it is a very good manual to have on hand, and Wyatt's should be commended for making it available.
I'm sure there's not too many of these manuals out in the wild.
It makes a good read for anyone who works on phonograph motors, as much of the information loosely applies to motor's of any make.
The spring in an Edison Standard is a small to medium sized spring, and shouldn't be too much problem to remove for a first timer. I wouldn't recommend starting out on a big diamond disc spring though

[coyote]

Thanks for that post, g-shane. I've only removed and regreased two machines' mainsprings thus far, a Grafonloa when I was about 13 (with the help of the then-new Compleat Talking Machine), and a triple-spring Triumph a few months ago, with a couple DDs to do in the near future. IMO, the most difficult parts are hooking the end of the spring to the barrel and making sure the inner coil is bent properly to "catch" the arbor. Making a diagram of spring direction and marking barrel positions in a multiple-spring machine is almost a given to prevent headaches/guesswork later. Forcing the spring back in the barrel really isn't that bad with patience and a little muscle. I imagine a jig would be helpful, but I've never used/made one. Just be sure you have a clean work surface: after cleaning the old grease off a spring, you don't want random bits of dirt from your garage floor getting picked up and placed in the barrel! Unwinding a garage door torsion spring is much more difficult/potentially dangerous, if anyone has ever had to do this!

[bob27556]

Gentlemen,

A very good friend of mine who makes his living enforcing industrial safety regulations on the state government level here in the U.S. once told me about a safety video containing interviews with victims of industrial accidents. One of them told of how he did not like to wear his full face shield when working on the electric grinding wheel because he found it 'uncomfortable'. Today this man is totally blind as the result of the grinding stone disintegrating at high revs. The interview ended with him making this statement concerning his blindness: 'How uncomfortable is that?'

Two weeks ago I unloaded an Edison Standard 'A' spring with 2 cracks in it. I wore a full face shield, long sleeve shirt with sleeves tucked into heavy rubber gloves that came halfway up my forearms. The spring barrel was contained in a plastic bucket in case it got away from me.

I have not unloaded and reloaded a lot of springs because I've only been involved in this hobby for around six years but one thing I've learned in my 52 years on this Earth is that 'it can happen to me'. Perhaps knowing that 'it can happen to me' is what helped me survive six years as a banner tow and ag-pilot. Safety was the word of the day..............every day.

[Amberola 1-A]

And safety was the point of my post.
"nuff" said!!

[gramophoneshane]

I totally agree that safety is important, not only with phono repairs, but in everything you do. That is why I have mentioned safety issues in the description box on my video.
Anyone who watches my video AND reads the description & comments should be able to do a spring with no troubles at all.

[martinola]

Hi Dick!
I've started a database for Edison Standards and your serial number is in a gray area as far as my data goes. Does your case style look like:



4 Clip Standard Model A

or



New style case Standard Model A

I noticed that you were talking about loose motor mount screws. The early motors used rubber as shock mounting rather than springs (used in Model B and later). Here's a photo of one of my crudely made rubber replacements:




Is the last patent date on your ID plate May 31, 1898? Welcome to the gentle insanity of owning an Edison Standard!

Martin

[PhonoJack]

I was going to ignore any further posts on this topic until I received the following from gramophoneshane. I hope this message is taken in a positive way because members can and should have disagreements without being disagreeable. This is a safety issue.
From: gramophoneshane
Hi Jack,

I thought perhaps you might like to explain in that thread why Edison springs should not be opened as I show in my video. Is there something Edison & I don't know that you do?
No doubt you've seen the service manual pages I posted?
Did I get it all wrong, or were you just trying to put me down again.LOL

Actually, now I think about it, I think you should publicly apologize to me for making out that my method was wrong and dangerous. I don't want to have to ask for it publicly myself.
Shane.

Background:
A new member who just got his first Edison phonograph asked some basic questions about restoration. I gave him some details that he and other members appreciated. I raised a very serious safety issue with the video that a member posted concerning removing a spring from a phonograph. Most phonograph collectors that have had some experience changing springs agree that it can be a dangerous task. I felt an obligation to point out that video doesn’t represent the typical Edison spring removal. If you simply Google what experienced dealers say about the inexperienced changing springs, almost all of them warn or caution, don’t do it.

If this or any new member changed that Edison spring as shown in the video, he could be seriously injured. So this kind of warning is more important than hurting anyone’s feelings. In fact, if this message is deleted, which I hope it will not be, then we all lose. More important one of our newest members could lose an eye or the tip of his finger or other injury.

I will now respond to gramophone’s question to me so that he does not have to ask me for a public apology as he says he will if I don’t reply.
The typical Edison spring (and specifically Dick’s) example is much more powerful than the weaker Thorens spring shown in gramophoneshane’s (GS) example. GS’ example comes from an Australian assembled Rexonola (leading brand in Australia) using imported a Thorens motor/spring. I responded to GS’ post about the burlap bag so I won’t repeat the entire text here, it is not use to let the spring unwind uncontrolled, it is used for safety purposes while holding onto the spring firmly under control, letting the energy out a little at a time.
I won’t dignify GS comments about old wives tales, & ‘rumours’ started by repairmen to drum up business or other editorial comments he makes.

GS provides examples from the Edison diamond disk service manual.

1. The cover of the manual says … it is for the use of those engaged in the handling and care of such mechanisms. Others should not try to apply the instructions contained herein if it is possible to engage the services of an experience repairman.
2. On page 6 the instructions (for a broken spring) say … can now be pulled away along the cover but you are cautioned to do this slowly and carefully to prevent too sudden release of the broken coils of the spring. It is advisable to use gloves and also to protect clothing from oil coming from the spring. Holding the case downward inside a barrel, if one is at hand will afford protection.

Note GSs video shows bare hands, no protection scenario. Not what Edison intended.
I agree if it’s good enough for Edison, I’d follow those instructions and be safe.

I don’t want to continue this debate or sabre rattling with GS as so often happens with other members. Our members are smart enough to make their own decisions and do their own research. But above all else we have some obligation to newcomers who expect experience includes concern for safety rather than winning an argument.

[gramophoneshane]

Yes, my video does show me doing it bare handed, BUT if you read the title of the video, it says SEE DESCRIPTION, where I state safety concerns & that the spring shown is a fairly weak spring. I also advise to proceed with EXTREME caution, and that larger springs are more powerful.
ALL these points are covered in the description & comments.

Your statement about "certain video's on the web" was directed at me, because mine is the only video on the web (that I'm aware of) showing the procedure I use.
And my point of asking for an appology was because of the fact that you "think" Edison springs MUST NOT be removed in this way, which is completely FALSE.

You simply saw an opportunity to belittle me once again, as you and Bill have done many times in the past, hey HANK.

BTW: I have numerous people thank me for the video, including members of this board, who have stated that they didn't realise just how easy it is to remove a spring by hand.
And obviously any website that is involved with spring repairs is going to say not to try it at home. They want your business & don't want you to know what a simple process it is. One website charges $200 for a 1 or 2 spring motor- a job that can be done from start to finish in half an hour.

And would you like me to start posting some of your PM's to me? Or PM's I've recieved with YOUR IP Address about fake accounts & comments?

You might also note that I did not advise Dick to remove the spring himself in any way, shape or form. I simply made a statemen to Bob regarding the damage that can occure if a spring is let loose in a bag. After this, you edited your post saying it should be kept under control.

And just in case anyones wondering why Jacks edited post shows no edit count, it doesn't always show for some reason. I edited this post 4 times to add to it & fix spelling before the first post count came up as 1 (now to be 2)

I notice on your website, you will soon be adding a catalog Jack. Are you intending on doing spring & motor repairs as well?

[wjw]

Alright, nobody said it, so here goes:

Some people are wound too tightly tonight!


Please, no offense intended, just some PUNishment.

Seriously, safety first. I have coiled but a few springs in my time. Once with a Sonora Baby Grand I earned a good slice to the forearm. Had I worn a long sleeve shirt I might have fared better.

[stachowiak]

Hi Dick!
I've started a database for Edison Standards and your serial number is in a gray area as far as my data goes. Does your case style look like:



4 Clip Standard Model A

or



New style case Standard Model A

I noticed that you were talking about loose motor mount screws. The early motors used rubber as shock mounting rather than springs (used in Model B and later). Here's a photo of one of my crudely made rubber replacements:




Is the last patent date on your ID plate May 31, 1898? Welcome to the gentle insanity of owning an Edison Standard!

Martin

Martin,

Thanks for posting the pictures. My machine looks like a combination of your first two pictures. My mechanism looks like the top photo with the reproducer tail and retaining clips, and my case has the rounded top with the swing out side latches. Your third photo is what I've been waiting to see, and is exactly like mine. I thought that I was missing some type of rubber grommet, but many thought I should have springs. How much distance between the bottom of the bedplate and the top of the motor chassis did you end up with to properly center the crank? Also. my patent date is May 31, 1898. This forum is fantastic and I really appreciate everyone's help.

Thanks,

Dick Stachowiak
East Syracuse, NY